February 28, 2002
7:06 AM   Subscribe

I do datamining consultant for retailers. Shoplifting, spoilage, malhandled presentation items, etc, are called "shrinkage" in the industry. They usually account for about 2% of gross for groceries and the like, and possibly up to 5% of gross for higher value item retailers.

What do retailers do about shrinkage: they know about it, they predict it, and they add it to the bottom line. So, when you steal from an airline or a restaurant, you add to the price of the goods and/or service for everybody else.

Thanks for that.
posted by costas at 7:14 AM on February 28, 2002

Cripes. I don't do consultant. I can barely stand being one. Note to self: preview more carefully in the future.
posted by costas at 7:15 AM on February 28, 2002

Preview my arse. That's a damn good point costas.

I look at all the peasants living round my area, littering the street with their crap, and I know it adds to the cost of the community eg. my tax as well as making it unsightly.

I also work in the engineering trade, and we are constantly dogged with w*nkers on sites nicking our equipment for no good reason except it is shiny.

However....if you want to dodge the barriers on the tube, a rolled up newspaper held forward to the side of the waist of the person in front of you and then kept in the middle of the barrier as you walk through, holds the sensor for the gate open. Works a treat particularly if carrying the Financial Times.
posted by Frasermoo at 7:29 AM on February 28, 2002

Does it matter whom you're stealing from and how much money you've previously spent on them?

I spend plenty of time on airplanes, in hotels, and eating at restaurants. I never really occurs to me that I should steal something. Heck, I tend not to even take the stuff that it is ok to take from hotels rooms (the shampoo, the candy in the candy dish, etc.).
posted by obfusciatrist at 7:31 AM on February 28, 2002

On the one hand, boo hoo hoo for the designer celebrity chef restaurants, into whose 90% profit margins the theft of a steak knife or an embroidered napkin cuts deeply, in much the same was as the aforementioned steak knife slices into a $85 New York sirloin.

On the other hand, (addressing one of Miguel's questions), there is no ethical contraints to be taken into consideration when it comes to stealing, except the primary ethical constraint not to steal. While your comment about booty made me choke on my apple with laughter, the sense of entitlement in consumers and the hypocrisy of rich guys condemning (largely) the poor for theft and then walking away with a $1200 ice bucket with little or no lingering questions of morality is enough to make me choke for other reasons. Or a picture of someone's mother? Sons of bitches. That's not the same thing as pinching the single-use soaps at a hotel, is it?
posted by Hildago at 7:38 AM on February 28, 2002

ummmmm - Hildago, "90%"? Even MS can "only" eeek out 80% in their salad days (which are over, margin-wise). A high-end restaurant usually only has the spotlight for a given number of years, so bully for them if they focus on higher end stuff. To be honest, the $$ is in the wine list, not the food.

But back to Miguel's question: I run a few businesses, and it never fails to shock the hell out of me what people will take and/or try to get away with. It seems to come down to people imagining that they are paying too much and they want to "try and get a little more".
Hell, if you're a major customer I'll MAKE SURE that I take care of you in different ways - but don't steal everything that isn't nailed down.
posted by crankyrobot at 7:52 AM on February 28, 2002

Regarding shoplifting: Have I? Yes. A lot? Yes.

Is it something that I'm proud of? No, but I'm also not ashamed of it. In truth I haven't stolen anything in the last 5 months or so, but this past summer was probably the most profitable summer of my life. Jobless (actively searching though) my roommates and I shoplifted probably 50% of our groceries. Sometimes much more. Our basic rules of operation were: Never steal from independant stores, or from people, don't steal petty things, (ie: why steal deodorant, when you can pay for that and steal cheese or tofu, which are far more pricey, and just as necessary.) try not to steal independantly produced items (market food, farmer grown) because it may be being sold on consignment, which would be like stealing from the farmer.

We also stole alot of books from chapters. Books are expensive, chapters is bad.

Rationale: Large chains can take it, not only that, but large chains are a threat to small businesses which makes their losses, in my books, negligable.

The problem is as follows: Stealing becomes habitual. by the end of the summer, i was stealing stupid things, like picture frames and candy. (it was getting so easy, that i almost felt like a jerk for paying for something i knew i could steal) I was starting to feel kind of chumpy and petty, and when one of my roommates got caught (no charges) I got sketched out, and decided that since I was now employed, the benefits of stealing were not worth having a record, especially since I could afford to pay for things. So i stopped, pretty much cold turkey.

Although I don't regret what I've done, (and support ethical thieves worldwide) I'm glad I've stopped (mostly) if for no other reason than because it's nice to not always be a little bit paranoid of getting caught. And to know that I'm in control of myself.

By the way, I think that the number of people who steal from work would be an interesting thing to look at as well. Again, I have a good job, and I stopped because four pens in my pocket are not worth losing my job.
posted by paultron at 7:52 AM on February 28, 2002

Stealing is stealing. . .it does not matter from whom.

I'm certainly not setting myself up as perfect but I think that anyone who takes something without paying for it be it, services or goods, and then saying that it's justified because the person or company that these goods and services are liberated from is greedy and rich is missing the point.

It comes down to us who are doing the taking (and we all do in different ways) and these little decisions, repeated over and over, add up to a life. To try to live as cleanly as one can is a good thing to do, I think.
posted by Danf at 7:54 AM on February 28, 2002

"Professor, what's the word for pirate treasure?"
"Well I think it's booty!"

...but seriously, this sort of minor theft is often what nails people for bigger crimes -- like the idiot I knew who stole a container of Armor-All from a 7-Eleven, while carrying some fairly serious pharmaceuticals. Oops, I guess that's five years in prison. Moron.

There's got to be some kind of biological theft impulse, because otherwise I really can't explain why seemingly-normal folks would try to snag a few free grapes at the grocery. Christ, they've got a freaking huge SUV, and they can't be bothered to buy a few bucks in produce?

But above all, remember kids, if you're going to steal, make sure you aren't in the process of committing a larger crime first!
posted by aramaic at 7:56 AM on February 28, 2002

ummmmm - Hildago, "90%"? Even MS can "only" eeek out 80% in their salad days (which are over, margin-wise). A high-end restaurant usually only has the spotlight for a given number of years, so bully for them if they focus on higher end stuff. To be honest, the $$ is in the wine list, not the food.

90 was something of a hyperbole. I don't know what their profit margin is. I know that the cost of their ingredients isn't in proportion to the cost of their products, and that as opposed to Microsoft, it doesn't cost tens of millions of dollars to develop a plate of spinach pasta with vinaigrette. I hope my point, such as it is, is still clear to you.
posted by Hildago at 7:57 AM on February 28, 2002

Am I stealing from my employer by reading metafilter at work?
posted by panopticon at 7:58 AM on February 28, 2002

There are tons of goods and services where the profit margins are well into the 80-90% range. Repeat after me: the price of an item is determined by the buyer, not the seller. If you offer exceptionally good consulting work for $1,000/hr but no one is hiring you, your going rate is $0/hr, not $1k.

My point is, if you go into an expensive restaurant, willing to pay 90% profit margin for the ambiance or the experience, you cannot quite turn around and call the owners unethical for taking your money. However, you stealing from them is.
posted by costas at 8:00 AM on February 28, 2002

Oh, to add to that, and answer your question about strategies, here are some "good" ones:

- Chapters is almost too easy. The shelves are the right height that you can see over them comfortably to know if anyone is looking, but they can't see you sticking books in your bag. Also, there are no cameras, and many of the stores have a "No Chase Policy".
- Walmart is pretty easy, but it still gives me the willies.
- At the grocerie store, the most punk rock (read: fuck off, or so stupid it works) strategy i've seen used is the Left Hand Maneovre. Basically, hold a few things you'd rather not pay for in your left hand (below your waist) when you go through the checkout. Have your money ready, and just pay for your other stuff and get out. The best part is that if they see the food, you can just play stupid and pretend you forgot it.
- The movie theatre near my house has an elevator that goes straight down to the cinema level, bypassing the ticket guy.
- and finally, one for everyone: Free Photocopies. Staples (Business Depot) works on the trust policy. So when you're done, just put all your copies in your bag, write down how many you want to pay for (usually i'll make about 300, pay for 50.) and pay for them. They won't know, they won't ask. Kinko's on the other hand, has those little counters, but a good strategy (and a proven one) is when you're done copying, drop the counter on the ground. The impact will screw up the counter, and set it to some insane number like 65,479,008 or something. Then just look embarassed, and explain that you dropped it, and you actually only made about 20 copies. They're always very good about it.

i realise that confessing to stealing is not necessarily the best way to "make friends", and I don't expect my rationale to fly with everyone, but the topic came up, and i thought i should add something from the other side.
posted by paultron at 8:09 AM on February 28, 2002

paultron: quite funny that you'd steal cheese but pay for deodorant. Cheese has near 0% profit margin, it's there because it draws people in the store. Plus, grocers hate it due to its limited shelf life. Deodorant on the other hand has a fat profit margin, it's probably heavily discounted by the supplier and has no shelf life.
posted by costas at 8:14 AM on February 28, 2002

paultron: "Rationale: Large chains can take it, not only that, but large chains are a threat to small businesses which makes their losses, in my books, negligable."

I think you're missing the point. These losses are passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices -- they are not absorbed by the sellers. So any time you shoplift, you're violating your own self-imposed rule: "Never steal from ... people."

Here's the other thing that I never understood about stealing: Don't you think that everyone would love to get things for free? How did you come to the conclusion that you are so special that you don't have to pay? (bad analogy alert) It's like when you're waiting in backed-up traffic on an exit ramp, and all these people drive past you in the regular lane then butt in at the last possible second. I always think: "Sure, we're all just waiting because we like it. But you're special, so you get to go at the front of the line." I don't get the mentality.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:17 AM on February 28, 2002

paultron, leaving the morality of theft aside, I for some reason feel great contempt for people who abuse trust policies like the one you mention at Staples. Yeah, sometimes I take things I shouldn't take from places - but I like to think that when I'm on my honour, I can be trusted.

As for your other strategies, sure, if people want to steal things and risk being caught, then fine. No, I don't think it's 'right' - but I sometimes do it. I have been known to 'liberate' stationery from my office in the (distant) past. I never kidded myself that it was anything other than straight-out theft, though.
posted by different at 8:17 AM on February 28, 2002

Shoplifters will come up with any number of stupid rationalizations for why their behaviour "isn't bad." Each and every one of those excuses is illegitimate, and only serves to make the behaviour that much sleazier.

Let's take, for example, "Chapters is bad."

No, Chapters is not bad. It's a fucking godsend for those of us who only had pissy-assed little "Coles" stores and tiny independents to shop at. My entire selection of books consisted solely of the top-fifty bestsellers until Chapters showed up and made it possible to see a huge variety of alternatives.

Chapters made it possible to sit down and actually browse a book before deciding whether it was worth buying. Chapters made it possible to order in a book without being punished: no prepayment, no risk if I decided not to buy it, no problems with returns if it turned out to be unsuitable. Chapters was open past five, so I could go there after work.

And then it nearly goes down the tubes, in part because assholes like you, who have no respect for the property rights of others, decide to "liberate" books because, hey, Chapters has more than one store and is listed on the TSE. Thanks, fucker: now my store has limited hours, less selection, and may end up tanking.

With friends like you, who needs enemies.

Or let's look at cheese, thief: twenty kilometers north of my home was a small dairy plant and cheese factory. Thanks to creeps like you, it's closed: its owner (Dairyland) couldn't afford to keep it open. Why? In part, because *YOU* wouldn't pay for your cheese.

That's fifty-odd people out of work. I'm sure they're just _delighted_ that you, in infinite wisdom, have decided that stealing cheese doesn't actually hurt anyone. It's not like the producer need pay anyone for its production, eh?

Your rationale is stupid, sickening, pathetic, and does not serve you well. Gettafuckingclue. You're hurting people who don't deserve to be hurt.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:31 AM on February 28, 2002 [1 favorite]

I'm very uncomfortable with this thread. Especially because I've been guilty of almost everything on this page. I've lifted from stores, restaurants, theaters, schools, charities, you-name-it.

Do I feel guilty? Sometimes. Sometimes not. People keep telling me that karma's going to catch up with me. Yeah, probably.

My biggest crime? I hate paying at movie theaters. It's common knowledge that studios get most of the ticket price from the first few weeks of a film. Theaters really only make money on concessions. So, if I've only got a fiver in my pocket, I'll slip by the ticket dork and buy popcorn from the theater. I especially do this with a movie I KNOW is going to suck.

Like "John Q". I knew it was going to be lousy, but I wanted to see HOW lousy. So, I slipped past the ticket guy (no one making minimum wage wants to argue with you over whether you got a ticket or not and you can always say "I want to see if my friend is here yet."). And I was right. I would have felt cheated if I paid to see it. Is that wrong? Yes. But I felt no guilt about stealing, because the product was lousy.

And before anyone comes down on me, let me say that most of my thefts were (as the president would say) "youthful indiscretions."

Like when I said that I stole from charities, here's the story:

In high school, I worked as a volunteer for Jerry's Kids. We manned phones all night long and spent the day on street corners soliciting change from motorists. After 16 hours, we were dead on our feet, so we figured that Jerry owed us.

So, we took money out of the cans and bought a pizza. It wasn't until years later, I realized how wrong that was.
posted by ColdChef at 8:37 AM on February 28, 2002

It's interesting that some folks on this thread mention airplanes. There really isn't all that much that can be stolen and we carry extras of the safety cards and such if anyone feels the need for a "souvenir". There has been an odd trend the last couple years, though.
Seatbelts. Yes, they unhook and steal the seatbelts. While the fashion bit started in Norway, it is apparently popular over on this side of the pond too. I never will understand people...
posted by eszetela at 8:40 AM on February 28, 2002

Christ I wish MeFi was audio so I could sample Miguel saying booty -- b, b, b, b-booty!
posted by lbergstr at 8:42 AM on February 28, 2002

So pay up your ten bucks, Chef, and if you don't like the movie, DEMAND A FREAKIN' REFUND. Sheeyit, it's not rocket science!
posted by five fresh fish at 8:43 AM on February 28, 2002

From a worker's perspective, there's the viewpoint that companies are stealing from employees, by underpaying them dramatically for their work.

There were people that worked at one record store and got paid minimum wage, every night they would walk out with CDs, until a few would get caught and fired. At a second store, the employees got paid $10 an hour and were intensely loyal to the store, and wouldn't even think of stealing. (this is a true example)
posted by drezdn at 8:46 AM on February 28, 2002

I shoplift often. I don't have a personal moral relating to whether it's right or wrong. I just feel that it isn't so bad since I'm not stealing from an actual person.

The key to shoplifting is your attitude. It's all about not looking like you're shoplifting. Usually I just pick something up, evaluate if it will fit in my pocket without being noticed, and walk around til nobody's around or will notice, and casually slide it into my coat pocket.

One thing I won't do again, but was quite fun to actually pull off, was when I pushed a shopping cart with a couple discmans, a nice cordless phone, and a Mad magazine right through the local Wal*Mart's doors. I just told myself: "I bought these," and before I knew it, I was pushing the cart towards my friend's car.

I'm not ever doing it again, just because it was a big risk, and I knew that the Wal*Mart's cameras were never viewed (it pays off to know someone who works at the place you shoplift from), so I thought I'd give it a shot, and I figured if I got busted I could always just run like hell.

There's a definite rush to shoplifting for me, much like the same rush you get when you find an insanely sweet deal on something. Money saved. I could easily pay for a lot of the stuff I steal, but I don't, just because I'm a cheapskate.
posted by trioperative at 8:47 AM on February 28, 2002

I've always thought of stealing as wrong. I've never shoplifted anything in my life. I'm the sort of person who drives back to McDonalds when I realize they gave me a dollar extra in change.

But when I was in college, we were required to be on the meal plan and the food was awful. At some point, I decided that every time the food was really bad I would steal something from the dining hall as revenge. Most meals it the food was just mediocre, and I would take the caps off the salt and pepper shakers. If it was worse I would walk out with utensils or dishes. One day the food was so bad that I enlisted a whole group of people to help me and we walked out with all kinds of stuff -- flatware stuffed in our pants gave us bellies. A voluptuous friend shoved bowls in her cleavage. Someone wearing cargo pants filled his pockets with silverware. And I stood in the middle of the crowd and walked out with a napkin dispenser and a tray. After about three months of taking the caps off the salt and pepper dispensers, the school replaced all the shakers with disposable capless ones. It may not have been change for the better, but it was nice to know that I at least had some impact on my college during the undergraduate years.

My dorm mates and I ended up making art with all the caps I had stolen.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:51 AM on February 28, 2002

"ethical thieves worldwide"????!!! I'm not going to start judging anyone - most of us have done something bad at some point in our lives. But for crying out loud, if you are doing something bad, don't call it "ethical."
posted by tdismukes at 8:52 AM on February 28, 2002

If we don't pay for our cheese, Jerry's kids have already won. Is that what you're saying?

I've stolen occasionally, including a couple of the aforementioned steak knives from Outback Steak House. They probably owe them to me as an advance payment for the coronary bypass operation. That, and really everything else I've ever stolen have been joy-ride type affairs just to see if I could get away with it.

I've never stolen habitually or stolen anything very valuable. I haven't been in the position of needing to steal for food, so I can't say how I would react in such a situation. To be honest with you, I would probably wrestle with the ethical dilemma for about as long as it took me to get to the bin food aisle at Safeway.
posted by Kafkaesque at 8:53 AM on February 28, 2002

Theaters really only make money on concessions. So, if I've only got a fiver in my pocket, I'll slip by the ticket dork and buy popcorn from the theater.

People are so irrational about money. Do you think that the money you pay at the concession stand and the money you pay for a ticket get locked up in two separate safes, and the ticket money gets airmailed to Hollywood? No, the theater takes it all, and they pay for the right to project the movie whether you pay or not, and they pay their suppliers whether you pay or not. In the end, the theater gets screwed; it doesn't matter which thing you elect to not pay for. (And ultimately, moveigoers get screwed because their ticket proces are higher, as others have said.)

"youthful indiscretions."

Whoa, guess "John Q" has been out longer than I thought.
posted by rodii at 8:55 AM on February 28, 2002

god how i hate morrissey
posted by otherchaz at 8:55 AM on February 28, 2002

PS: Do you guys realize you're confessing to crimes in a public forum? Do you want your current or future employers hearing about this? (See Heather Hamilton threads on the lack of anonymity here.)
posted by rodii at 8:58 AM on February 28, 2002

A few years ago, I was shopping at one of our downtown Walgreen's locations (a.k.a. "Homeless Depot"), when I noticed a squat, unkempt young woman watching me, rather warily. No idea what this person is up to. Uncomfortable, I look back again to see if she's still watching--she pulls out a tube of Vagisil (tm) cream, squeezes out a little on her finger, and starts nibbling it. Needless to say, I didn't look back again.

Later, a co-worker told me that that was a fairly common ploy used by chronic shoplifters. Do something mightily disgusting to force people to look away, then stuff your pockets with the goods.

posted by gimonca at 9:06 AM on February 28, 2002

A while back I bought a book from an Amazon independent retailer. Didn't want to give Amazon any of my customer info to sell, so I asked the guy if I could buy the book via e-mail. I hadn't even considered cutting Amazon out of their commission, but he had a problem with it.

We decided that he could buy an Amazon gift certificate and then tear it up to cover the commission. Then he offered to ship me the book before I sent my payment. That level of trust from a total stranger was refreshing.

So I screwed him out of the money. ;)
posted by jeffhoward at 9:10 AM on February 28, 2002

I understand the thrill of shoplifting, especially for the young and idiotic. As a college student, I lifted several lager glasses from pubs throughout Amsterdam because they had cool silkscreening (and in an episode of karmic justice, had the backpack that held said items, my walkman, and a camera stolen from my sleeping friends in Centraal Station).

However, I do not understand justifying the practice by saying things like "we get paid jack, so we take our wages in some other way", "their markups are unjustifiably high", or "their service/products are crap." If you really think those things, then quit/complain/refuse patronage. Send the objects of your ire a direct message rather than act in a passive-aggressive manner. Don't use so-called moral outrage as an excuse for petty theivery.
posted by Avogadro at 9:17 AM on February 28, 2002

This thread is like a handy list to help me keep track of who I'm better than. Better than.
posted by techgnollogic at 9:19 AM on February 28, 2002

Wow...there's a lot of kleptos posting today ;-)

Seriously, it is interesting seeing how people try to justify stealing anything.

"I wasn't stealing from a person, so it's ok"
"I buy a lot of things at that store, so it's ok for me to take something"
"I need a new belt" (personally, that thing about taking seatbelts off planes was a new one)

Stealing is stealing, folks. Some instances of the crime may have good intentions, like a person stealing food to feed hungry kids at home. But, regardless of the reason, it is stealing.
posted by JaxJaggywires at 9:20 AM on February 28, 2002

five fresh fish: So pay up your ten bucks, Chef, and if you don't like the movie, DEMAND A FREAKIN' REFUND. Sheeyit, it's not rocket science!

Seriously, do you think theaters give refunds if the movie is shitty? If so, I could save a fortune, because I see at least three movies a week, and only one good one every two weeks or so.

rodii: People are so irrational about money. Do you think that the money you pay at the concession stand and the money you pay for a ticket get locked up in two separate safes, and the ticket money gets airmailed to Hollywood?

I have friends that work at theaters and they always used to sneak me in free, providing that I bought something from the concession stand. As I said, I pay for movies I like (or think I may like) and SOMETIMES sneak into shitty movies. I think the greater crime would be for me to pay full price to see "Joe Dirt." That might lead studios to believe that shitty SNL movies are a good idea. And then, we all lose.

Whoa, guess "John Q" has been out longer than I thought.

Oh, and I snuck into "John Q" after paying full price to see "Donnie Darko." And, believe me, if you saw "Donnie Darko" at full price, you deserve to see as many fucking free movies as you'd like. Lord, it weren't good.
posted by ColdChef at 9:21 AM on February 28, 2002

Commie kid: "Shoplifting from big corporations is ethical!" <- good
Enron executive: "Fooling investors is ethical!" <- bad

MeFi Morality(tm)
posted by dagny at 9:24 AM on February 28, 2002

So pay up your ten bucks, Chef, and if you don't like the movie, DEMAND A FREAKIN' REFUND. Sheeyit, it's not rocket science!

Can you do that ? Legitimately I mean. Watch a whole movie, decide that it sucked, walk outside and get your money back? It doesn't sound plausible to me, but if it can be done, there are a few movies I am owed on for sure.

More to the point: I have done my share of bad things. Mostly as a teenager/kid. I do have a collection of pens at home, but that is because they migrate there in my pocket. I rarely remember to take it out. Should set a task reminder for it I guess.

Paultron: You need to grow up or something. To think that you can rationalize your stealing into the "they" deserved it and "they" didn't aspects is total BS
posted by a3matrix at 9:27 AM on February 28, 2002

(pulls crystal ashtray (( belguim, 6 euros' wholesale)) from Miguels coat)
Waiter: "...and the matches...the rocks glass also".

what do any of you know about theft?
"Your rationale is stupid, sickening, pathetic, and does not serve you well. Gettafuckingclue. You're hurting people who don't deserve to be hurt." YOU NEED TO GET A FRIKIN IDEAR SON. 'No honor amongst thieves' who said that huh? well, i can tell you it was NOT a thief. The trinkets (Loot:) miguels talkin about lifting is almost expected . In most of these posts i hear 'bad is bad is bad'. theft is theft?. fine, steal the Orloff diamond then steal grapes from the grocery store, get caught, then see how the sentences work out time wise. Take the phone-box thief from sunny CA. Guy could empty phone boxs...thats skill. Take Enron, thats....hell, its a skill (boiler room) but look at the repercussions...your bickering over morals, when the question is ethics. Half the movies in Hollywood are about theft. We glorify then condemn it. Rodiis' right, you folks are fessin to stuff that should be left to yourselfs".But above all, remember kids, if you're going to steal, make sure you aren't in the process of committing a larger crime first" thats a great example....armor all. a pro does not
steal from family and friends
steal for thrills
steals all the valuables
never carry a gun
never steal from those whom cant afford the loss
split loot fairly
NEVER TALK
lose the tools
do not brag.
posted by clavdivs at 9:29 AM on February 28, 2002

I would have felt cheated if I paid to see it. Is that wrong? Yes. But I felt no guilt about stealing, because the product was lousy.

How about just not going to see movies that you know are going to be bad? If it had turned out to be good, would you have forked over the ticket price? I don't think you would have.

Does the same logic mean that it's ok to steal bad food/books/clothing because they aren't worth the stated price? If you don't want to pay what something costs, just don't consume it.
posted by anapestic at 9:29 AM on February 28, 2002

I just remembered the motto a friends older brother once told us:

It's not what you make, it's what you take home.

He went off to jail at some point after that, because of his motto.

Poetic justice ?
posted by a3matrix at 9:29 AM on February 28, 2002

I've never watched an entire movie and then asked for a refund, but I have watched the first half-hour or so, realized that the opening credits were going to be the highlight of the flick, and then asked for and received a pass for another movie. I think watching the whole thing is far less justifiable, since rarely do movies crap out in the last minute.
posted by Avogadro at 9:31 AM on February 28, 2002

PS: Do you guys realize you're confessing to crimes in a public forum? Do you want your current or future employers hearing about this? (See Heather Hamilton threads on the lack of anonymity here.)

Thank you rodii for making the point that everyone in this thread who has admitted to theft of any kind seems to have forgotten about in less than 24 hours.

I think we should just call Miguel "Honeypot" from here on out because he was able to draw in so many willing confessors.

(note to others: when Miguel starts asking about who has downloaded kiddie porn, think twice before hitting the post button)
posted by briank at 9:34 AM on February 28, 2002

....had a friend who went to Eastern Mi. uni. He had a dorm and we would cruise around Ann Arbor looking for reality signs...not the ones for houses, but the sign outside the relators office. Almost an entire 3rd floor dorm had different reality signs in their windows...that was fun...for 15.
posted by clavdivs at 9:35 AM on February 28, 2002

Avogadro - I don't know...A.I. died pretty far into it ;-)
posted by JaxJaggywires at 9:35 AM on February 28, 2002

What an amazing thread. Suddenly my pre-pubescent history of mild, office-supply-centered kleptomania is so much less weighty than it was before.

... bless me, Father, for I have sinned, it's been twelve and a half years since my last confession.
posted by Sapphireblue at 9:37 AM on February 28, 2002

People who steal make me sick. Any sort of justification you use is bullshit. My opinion of quite a few people has been lowered today.
posted by owillis at 9:39 AM on February 28, 2002

"Can you do that ? Legitimately I mean. Watch a whole movie, decide that it sucked, walk outside and get your money back? "

You can absolutely do that. In fact, a friend of mine felt so cheated by a movie he saw at the dollar matinee a few years back that he demanded, and received, a refund of his one dollar admission.

Now that's a bad movie.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:42 AM on February 28, 2002

anapestic : I would have felt cheated if I paid to see it. Is that wrong? Yes. But I felt no guilt about stealing, because the product was lousy.

How about just not going to see movies that you know are going to be bad? If it had turned out to be good, would you have forked over the ticket price? I don't think you would have.

You make a good point. Although it's never happened (I've never gone into a movie that I know is going to be shitty and been surprised--most of the time, you just know), I know that I probably wouldn't pay if it turns out to be good. However, take a movie like "Joe Dirt." I wouldn't pay to see it, because I know it's going to suck, but who have I harmed by seeing it in an theater that would otherwise be empty?

I know there's the analogy of the guy who wants a free airplane ticket because, "You're going that way, anyway." But I see it differently. To me, it's almost like reading a magazine in Barnes and Noble instead of buying it. I'm not going to buy "PRINT" because it's damn expensive, but would it be considered stealing if I read the entire thing in the store?

Does the same logic mean that it's ok to steal bad food/books/clothing because they aren't worth the stated price? If you don't want to pay what something costs, just don't consume it.

Okay, but by your own analogy here, if I have a bad meal in a restaurant, I will ask for my money back. If I buy a CD that sucks, I will sell it back to the store. But, you can't unread a book or unwatch a movie. If theaters had a policy of paying you back if the movie sucks, I wouldn't feel like I had the right of sneaking in every now and then.

To me, the crime is somewhat victimless. Except, of course to David Spade's career. But, for god's sake, he's been coasting as it is. If he goes down, it's not because I snuck into his crappy film.
posted by ColdChef at 9:53 AM on February 28, 2002

You can absolutely do that. In fact, a friend of mine felt so cheated by a movie he saw at the dollar matinee a few years back that he demanded, and received, a refund of his one dollar admission.

And that illustrates a point I tried to make earlier: it's not worth a dollar to that theater to argue with you. So, is that stealing?

(However, when the movie gets to the dollar theater, that ticket purchase is going straight to the theater, not the studio, so in that case, I'd probably just let them keep their damn dollar. My ethics appear to be somewhat flexible.)
posted by ColdChef at 9:56 AM on February 28, 2002

What do retailers do about shrinkage: they know about it, they predict it, and they add it to the bottom line. So, when you steal from an airline or a restaurant, you add to the price of the goods and/or service for everybody else.

Right, so, if you shop at a particular large store and never shoplift from it, then you're just subsidizing everyone else's shoplifting activities without deriving any benefit from it yourself; in other words, if you don't shoplift occasionally, you're not getting your money's worth. ;)

As far as seeing movies you know are going to be bad goes, I like one friend's approach -- she buys a ticket for a movie at the megaplex that she does want the money to go to, and then goes and watches the guilty pleasure movie instead. Once the theater's torn your ticket, they don't really seem to give a shit where you go. I think it's a great idea, and it's what I plan to do when Episode II comes out.
posted by webmutant at 9:56 AM on February 28, 2002

My wife and I got our money back for "America's Sweethearts" halfway through. We had rented it.
posted by mecran01 at 9:59 AM on February 28, 2002

hahahahahaha

oh man, this is one of the best threads I have read in a while.

The best unanswered question has to be
"if you read mefi at work, are you stealing from your employer?"

and then that last statement by owillis...man. that is cool, do you work nights? Self employed? unemployed? I have to assume you wouldn't be stealing company internet access and taking money without performing your contracted service by reading and posting to mefi, so which is it?

This is great...thanks everyone...entertaining as always
posted by das_2099 at 10:00 AM on February 28, 2002

Okay, so...I just called four theaters in town (yes, I actually did) and asked them what their refund policy is. Three of four said that they'd give you a voucher to see another movie (not good for the first two weeks of a new movie--but nighttime price, not matinee) ONLY if you left during the movie.

The other theater said that they only give refunds if there is a mechanical problem with the projector. "What if the sound is really bad?" I asked. "Well, that's a matter of opinion, so if we don't think it's bad, we won't give you a refund."

I know which theater I'm sneaking into from now on...

Oh, and while I sort of see the logic of the other three theaters, sometimes you just don't know if a movie sucks until the very end, so...my crime spree continues.
posted by ColdChef at 10:09 AM on February 28, 2002

I'm not going to buy "PRINT" because it's damn expensive, but would it be considered stealing if I read the entire thing in the store?

If the reason were "because I wanted to save a tree," would that be better?

Also, how many of us have walked out of a store carrying something by accident? Seriously by accident - you're ten blocks away and you realize there's something in your hand. I know it's a great excuse for kleptos, but does that happen for real for anyone else?
posted by phoenix enflamed at 10:12 AM on February 28, 2002

i don't think i've ever accidentally walked out of somewhere with something in my hand. and i'm still torturing myself over the last time i allowed a cashier to make an error in my favor.

we're trying to have a society here, people.
posted by brigita at 10:15 AM on February 28, 2002

that is cool, do you work nights? Self employed? unemployed?
I'm one of America's jobless who doesn't steal. I guess looking at this thread I'm in the minority.
posted by owillis at 10:15 AM on February 28, 2002

Can everyone make sure to steal just a little more today to make up for Owillis here?

Slacker.
posted by Kafkaesque at 10:22 AM on February 28, 2002

Right, so, if you shop at a particular large store and never shoplift from it, then you're just subsidizing everyone else's shoplifting activities without deriving any benefit from it yourself; in other words, if you don't shoplift occasionally, you're not getting your money's worth. ;)

Let me keep beating that dead horse: grocers, for example, determine shrinkage on a weekly basis (some daily; some, believe it or not, hourly). Lowering prices for such companies is a competitive advantage, so less shoplifting will mean lower prices, almost right away.
posted by costas at 10:26 AM on February 28, 2002

My sister and I once stayed at a quite expensive hotel while attending a trade show. We ordered coffee one morning...and they sent it up in a 6 cup carafe...and with a room service bill for $18.00. (plus 20% tip) For coffee!

There was much discussion about whether the $18.00 included the $8.00 thermal carafe. :) That night at the bar, we teased the hotel manager about it and told him that if we weren't such nice girls, we would have assumed we got to keep the carafe. The next morning he had 2 of them sent up to the room. New, wrapped and with a card.

So, we didn't steal the carafe...but the concept raised it's head. :)
posted by dejah420 at 10:30 AM on February 28, 2002

The other theater said that they only give refunds if there is a mechanical problem with the projector. "What if the sound is really bad?" I asked. "Well, that's a matter of opinion, so if we don't think it's bad, we won't give you a refund."

This sound problem happened to me recently, when I went to see Harry Potter, a movie that probably made the theater a little bit o'money. During large chunks of the film it sounded like a dumptruck was idling in the aisle. Then at the very end, the film broke, so I guess we missed the last five minutes of the film. The manager tried to argue that since none of us had complained about the sound during the film (untrue), and we had only missed the last five minutes, we couldn't get our money back. And we didn't get our money back, we got vouchers, which for me was just as good but there were a couple of grousers in the crowd.

And as far as movie related theft goes, I once worked in a theater. The manager felt bad that he couldn't pay us as much as he wanted to, and since we lacked a ticket-ripping guy on all except the busiest nights, he showed us all a way to make extra money. Simply - the box office person (me) would rip the ticket and sell both halves at full price. We were "allowed" to make $20 a night extra, which was nice when you're a teenager, but now that I look back on it it I think we were caught up in some guy's revenge fantasy against his company.

This little scheme paled in comparison to what the concession people did. Concession worked on inventory, so you counted your cups/containers/candy at the beginning and end of your shift and hopefully it balanced with what was in your drawer (this was pre-register...we did it all in our heads back then, kids). Concession also cleaned the theater after a show. So they'd look for popcorn containers that were no butter or "lightly soiled", or drink cups that had water or clear soda and put them back into inventory, re-sell them and pocket the money at the end of the shift. And apparently this was a widely used practice in the theaters in our town. Yeah, eeew. I told the manager about that one, and they got a "talking to" but you can see from the first anecdote that we weren't exactly working in an environment with high moral standards. And I'm leaving out the garbage bags full of poporn we used to take home, stale candy liberation, the midnight screenings that were full of unauthorized refreshments and "beer night". The theater eventually closed, strangely not because it was being run by a lunatic (albeit a highly entertaining lunatic) but because a the chain that owned it built a multi-screen right down the road.
posted by kittyloop at 10:54 AM on February 28, 2002 [1 favorite]

I think the really interesting thing is in comparing morals/ethics within each person -- for example I don't steal, but I have done other (arguably much much worse) things with a clear conscience.

So, those of you that don't steal -- what bad things have you done, and why?
posted by aramaic at 10:58 AM on February 28, 2002

owillis, I think it's amazing that you're getting slammed for your statement. I also think it's amazing that people have the ability to rationalize theft in a way that it doesn't bother them. I always assumed that shoplifters felt some guilt.

Like brigita said, we're trying to have a society here. The hubris you must have to convince yourself that you are somehow "above" the normal rules that apply to everyone else. The fact is, if you steal, you're just a leech living off the hard work of others. Feel free to rationalize that any way you want, but it's the truth.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:08 AM on February 28, 2002

"...those of you that don't steal -- what bad things have you done, and why?"

I had sex with my best friend's wife, because she had an awesome rack.

I didn't get in on the "boyzone" thread, so I figured this was my chance.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:11 AM on February 28, 2002

So, those of you that don't steal -- what bad things have you done, and why?

I once killed a man just to watch . . . oh forget it.

Between this thread and the "fuck the music companies, I deserve free tunes!" thread, it's a kind of depressing day for me.

That people actually ask for refunds because they willingly went to a bad movie is mind-boggling to me.
posted by Skot at 11:17 AM on February 28, 2002

Chef, I'm sorry to hear that you've such poor judgement that you see three bad movies every week. I should have thought that you'd change your movie-watching behaviour, rather than steal the opportunity to see yet another bad movie.

And, yes, I have left a bad movie and obtained a refund. The key, of course, is to not be so stupidly masochistic as to sit through the entire thing. If it's an awful movie, you'll know it within ten or fifteen minutes. Go out and demand a refund or a gift certificate to get you into the next movie. Be polite, be firm, and be dead serious, and you'll get it.

Clavdivs: You sicken me. That's all the response you deserve.

Chef, again: "but would it be considered stealing if I read the entire thing in the store?" Fuck, *YES*. The author sure as hell didn't work on his book for a year just so you could steal the information in it. Give your head a shake, boy.

Someone else: "Also, how many of us have walked out of a store carrying something by accident? Seriously by accident - you're ten blocks away and you realize there's something in your hand. I know it's a great excuse for kleptos, but does that happen for real for anyone else?"

I have. And I've gone back and paid for it. Accident is no excuse.


I am simply appalled by the prevalance of posters who apparently have completely failed to develop socially-beneficial ethics. Talk about egocentric, fuck-everyone attitudes. Sheeyit, little wonder this society is the shits.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:19 AM on February 28, 2002

Proudhon would say "property is theft"...

For everyone who is opposed to shopping lifting (and I should point out that I don't do it), are you certain that you're not stealing somewhere else in your llife? Do you download music or videos that you didn't pay for, do you fudge on your taxes, is your 'leave a penny/take a penny' karma leaning heavily to the 'take a penny' side? Do you live in New York, a city built on land bought in what was essentially a real estate scam.

It's hard to be able to claim that we've never worked this system to get a little something extra.

I am curious as to whether stores (besides passing shoplifting costs on to the consumer) also collect any insurance money on items that were stolen?

Not to make an excuse for shoplifting, but could it be that more people shoplift because advertising convinces that we need more than we can afford? By pushing us into the stores to purchase, are advertisers pushing some people to pocket?
posted by drezdn at 11:21 AM on February 28, 2002

How's the wind up there on your high horse, Owillis? I hope a gust doesn't come though and knock you off.

Yeah, this is a very interesting thread. I used to steals lots of things, although I've cut back alot lately since I started my new job. I used to work as a bartender, and over the course of a summer, I probably stole 10 or 11 full bottles of booze (I was stocking up for moving back to college). That's not to mention the drinks I consumed on the clock, and the occasional pint of Guinness that I took home to enjoy after work.

I always felt bad about, a little bit. One of my bosses was pretty nice to me, so I tried not to steal while I was on his shift. My other boss was a dick, so doing anything to screw up his count at the end of the day was well worth the risk. I know this really isn't a good reason, but it's true.

I've also stolen some things that were a little more directly related to real people, not corporations. When I was attempting to form a band years back, I ripped off a bunch (3) of studio mics from my high school. I felt really bad about it, so a few weeks later, I broke in though the loading dock (they never locked it, it was common knowledge) and returned them.

I think the worst thing I ever did was steal a car stereo from a guy I knew, and didn't like. He really pissed me off for reasons not worth going into, so when I saw his car, unlocked in a dark part of the street at night, I went nuts. I was in, and out, in 30 seconds. I just took his radio, and threw it into the Charles River. I felt really good after I did it, but about 6 hours after, I started to feel really guilty. To this day I feel like a real big dick for what I did.

But I don't think I felt any guilt when I ripped off a video camera from Circuit City. It's a pretty easy scam. You either find a friend who has a receipt for something fairly expensive (dvd player, video camera, CD player.. something you can carry around. No TV's or anything they keep in stock in the back), and take it from him. You can also search the garbage bins right outside of circuit city for a nice receipt, but I wouldn't do this during the day. Go in, make a note of who is working at the return counter, and go right for the item you're going to steal. Walk around with it for a bit, and then go and try to return it. If they let you return it, you'll have to sign a few things (obvious tip: use a fake name), but then you'll have a few hundred bucks in your pocket. If they wont, just walk out. They assume it's yours. If a security alarm goes off, just run. They can't touch you when you're outside the store.

Also, keep in mind, shop lifting is pretty small time, and it doesn't really drive up the costs for anyone. What drives up the costs are the pros who do this. Credit card fraud, inside jobs, robberies. That's where most of higher prices come from, not this nickel and dime bullshit.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:22 AM on February 28, 2002

owillis, I think it's amazing that you're getting slammed for your statement.

For what it's worth, my comments toward Oliver were purely in jest. I'm pretty sure he knows that.
posted by Kafkaesque at 11:24 AM on February 28, 2002

I'm hard-pressed to think of a MeFi thread that made me more (angry|sickened|saddened at how morally bankrupt society has become) than this one. It's astounding how some people feel they can walk through life -- stepping on whomever they choose -- with their heads held high.

To me, the crime is somewhat victimless.

Somewhat victimless? What the hell does that mean? There either is a victim or there isn't, and 99.99% of crimes have victims, whether the ill effects upon them are immediate/obvious to the criminal.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," you cry! "Your moral slate is no more clean than any of the rest of us!" Perhaps not, but the acts I've committed are petty and marginally illegal things (downloading MP3s, driving in excess of the speed limit, visiting MetaFilter during working hours, whatever) will never leave me sitting in a jail cell, especially with an attitude of righteous indignation.

Blah.
posted by Danelope at 11:26 AM on February 28, 2002

kafkaesque, I didn't mean to paint you with my broad brush. I was actually referring to das_2099's comment. The fact that your post was made with a wink was duly noted.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:29 AM on February 28, 2002

but the acts I've committed are petty and marginally illegal things...downloading MP3s

Say I'm a musician... Which I happen to be. In order for me to have a decent sounding instrument, I'll have to pay $500. A good amp will cost me between $500-$1500 depending on what I want to sound like. If I play guitar, I will have to buy strings say roughly every week I practice at $5 a pack, not to mention all the cables to make everything work.

Now I have equipment... Next I practice for 5 or more years, say 10 hours a week (this value is low) without pay, and have to cover the $10 a week in gas just to get to practice... Practice with the band, a group of four other people who have invested $2000 or more in equipment...

In order to tour we will have to buy a van... Low end cost $1000 dollars, high end cost $30,000.

If we'd like to record a single song, so that you can hear it, than we'll have to book studio time. Studios cost $30 dollars and hour and up, the more you pay the better you sound, and one song, professionally done, will take anywhere from 5 to 10 hours or more to work on.

So I invest all this time and money into creating a single song, and than someone "steals" it and puts it up on the internet, and than you download it... And I never get paid for all that work.

So is downloading MP3's really that "petty"... Personally, the theft of a candy bar seems far more reasonable to me, but I don't have much of a problem with either one
posted by drezdn at 11:39 AM on February 28, 2002

sweetjesus: "How's the wind up there on your high horse, Owillis? I hope a gust doesn't come though and knock you off."
* * *
"But I don't think I felt any guilt when I ripped off a video camera from Circuit City."

So in your world, the person who steals from Circuit City need not feel guilt, but the person who is against stealing deserves to be taken down a peg? This post has been an eye-opener.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:40 AM on February 28, 2002

I only steal from the terminally ill, they're gonna die anyway. I'm sure I get much more enjoyment out of their pain medication and food then they would have.
posted by Mick at 11:55 AM on February 28, 2002

Re: Stealing from Chapters.

They may be a big company, but they're really in the hole, and your stealing doesn't help.

They owed me about $1700 for about a year, but I only got it after hassling them quite mercilessly. Losers like Paultron help them lose more money, which helps me not get paid. In the end, Paultron, you are always stealing from people.
posted by websavvy at 11:55 AM on February 28, 2002

So in your world, the person who steals from Circuit City need not feel guilt, but the person who is against stealing deserves to be taken down a peg? This post has been an eye-opener.

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, I've done these things, and yes some of them are bad, but from time to time we all do something stupid. I regret breaking into that car, but I don't have any regrets about stealing from circuit city. They knocked 3 local appliance and electronics stores out of business when they came, and between them and Best Buy, they killed Lechmere. I'd rather pay for anything at Lechmere any day, than buy anything from Circuit City again.

But for someone to pretty much come in and say "FORSHAME!!!!" and then point the finger at all of us in this thread who are admitting our past transgressions, while coyly implying that he's never done anything wrong, is bullshit.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:56 AM on February 28, 2002

So I invest all this time and money into creating a single song, and than someone "steals" it and puts it up on the internet, and than you download it... And I never get paid for all that work.

As I said in my comments in last night's MP3 discussion, I am far more likely to buy your album after I've had a chance to listen to it and know that I enjoy it. That is, of course, unless your music is shit, in which case I wouldn't have purchased your CD anyway. In my particular case, which is the one being addressed here, the MP3 format and the sharing thereof is doing you a big favor and increasing your sales. Without out, I would never have heard of artists like Broder Daniel, and I'll be purchasing at least two of their albums as soon as I get paid tomorrow.

Still care to toss accusations?

I only steal from the terminally ill, they're gonna die anyway.

Wow. That's the most obvious troll I've ever seen. You truly have a talent, sir.
posted by Danelope at 11:57 AM on February 28, 2002

Let (s)he without p2p installed cast the first stone...
posted by BentPenguin at 12:17 PM on February 28, 2002

rodii: Do you think that the money you pay at the concession stand and the money you pay for a ticket get locked up in two separate safes, and the ticket money gets airmailed to Hollywood? No, the theater takes it all, and they pay for the right to project the movie whether you pay or not, and they pay their suppliers whether you pay or not. In the end, the theater gets screwed; it doesn't matter which thing you elect to not pay for.

This is really not true. The money might not be kept in separate safes, but it is recorded in separate columns on the books. Box-office take for specific movies is what makes the world of Hollywood go round. By Saturday afternoon, you can find out the nationwide take of a particular movie from the night before. Most of the money does in fact make its way back to Hollywood. When Ben Affleck agreed to take points instead of a flat rate for his work (or lack thereof) on Pearl Harbor, he was not talking about points on the theaters renting the film from the studio (which doesn't happen, at least not in modern America; the studio is all too happy to lend the theater the movie and then take the money from ticket sales...it is actually slightly more complicated, as there are contracts involving the theater's right to stop showing the movie, and the studio's right to pull it). The gross from individual movies is also a major factor considered by marketing departments in terms of how heavily they want to continue to saturate the TV and radio with ads. That is why, when you complain about a movie and the theater lets you see another one, they usually give you "passes" instead of just telling you to walk into the other movie; they are supposed to keep track of exactly where your money went.

Anyway, my own confessions will come later; now I have to leave so I can sneak into a university class I did not pay for.
posted by bingo at 12:18 PM on February 28, 2002

If stealing is wrong, then stealing from anyone is wrong. The question of whether or not it serves a larger social or political purpose (ie fuck the man!) is worthy of discussion yet entirely separate.

Correllary, countering accusations that your act of theft is immoral with accusations that the person accusing you has done similar acts in the past does not exonerate you. While it allows you to avoid the realization of guilt, it doesn't remove the guilt. Whether or not it is worthwhile to experience guilt over a crime is, again, worthy of discussion but entirely separate from the issue.

Is stealing wrong?
posted by Hildago at 12:18 PM on February 28, 2002

If my high horse doesn't mean I'm pathetic enough to be ripping stereos off from circuit city then high-ho silver, away!
posted by owillis at 12:19 PM on February 28, 2002

I only steal from the terminally ill, they're gonna die anyway.

Wow. That's the most obvious troll I've ever seen. You truly have a talent, sir.

It is possible that that may have been a joke, Danelope.

Calling each other losers and saying things like:

Clavdivs: You sicken me. That's all the response you deserve.

is just silly.
posted by Kafkaesque at 12:19 PM on February 28, 2002

five fresh fish:Chef, I'm sorry to hear that you've such poor judgement that you see three bad movies every week. I should have thought that you'd change your movie-watching behaviour, rather than steal the opportunity to see yet another bad movie.

And, yes, I have left a bad movie and obtained a refund. The key, of course, is to not be so stupidly masochistic as to sit through the entire thing. If it's an awful movie, you'll know it within ten or fifteen minutes. Go out and demand a refund or a gift certificate to get you into the next movie. Be polite, be firm, and be dead serious, and you'll get it.

In the interest of disclosure, I should say that I am a screenwriter, and that I see bad movies specifically so I know what NOT to do. However, by this argument, I AM getting some kind of benefit from seeing bad movies--therfore, I should pay for them.

Dammit. Okay, you got me there...

I still hate to support crappy movies, but you make a valid point.

Chef, again: "but would it be considered stealing if I read the entire thing in the store?" Fuck, *YES*. The author sure as hell didn't work on his book for a year just so you could steal the information in it. Give your head a shake, boy.

Ah! But what if I read the SAME book at a LIBRARY? Now, am I ripping off that same writer? Gotcha there, don't I??? Except for the fact, of course that libraries PAY for their books. Okay, gimme a minute to think about this...

Okay! How about this? If I read a newspaper sitting on a bench (it was just sitting there, go with me) am I stealing because I didn't pay for it? Someone had to pay for it (a newstand or a consumer--but not me), and the writer's not going to get any more money even though other people are reading their stuff.

Answer me that, Smartie-Boy!
posted by ColdChef at 12:22 PM on February 28, 2002

If my high horse doesn't mean I'm pathetic enough to be ripping stereos off from circuit city then high-ho silver, away!

It was a video camera, but that's splitting hairs. If you consider me pathetic for ripping off a video camera once, then so be it. People are made up from more than the sum of a few actions. I think you're jumping to a snap decision, but it's clear that you've already made up your mind.

If you've done something in your life at least as karmicly bad as I have, then by your own argument, you're pathetic too. Just remember that.
posted by SweetJesus at 12:24 PM on February 28, 2002

You could always do virtual shoplifting

Webb, a computer consultant from Dallas, was browsing his local CompUSA when he saw a young man walk toward him listening to an iPod. Webb recognized the iPod's distinctive ear buds.

The teenager stopped at a nearby display Macintosh, pulled the iPod from his pocket and plugged it into the machine with a FireWire cable. Intrigued, Webb peeped over the kid's shoulder to see him copying Microsoft's new Office for OS X suite, which retails for $500.

posted by KnitWit at 12:34 PM on February 28, 2002

People are made up from more than the sum of a few actions.

Yes, but those actions say a lot. I would find the "power to the people" justifications in this thread funny if it wasn't so sad. The whole "well, I wouldn't steal from an indie/mom+pop store" excuse or "they owed it to me" is just a way to apply sad moral relativism where nothing is truly ever bad. You don't have to be religious or a bible-beater to realizing taking something that you do not own from someone is wrong. There's no wiggle room there from where I'm standing.

And now I ride away...
posted by owillis at 12:34 PM on February 28, 2002

The teenager stopped at a nearby display Macintosh, pulled the iPod from his pocket and plugged it into the machine with a FireWire cable. Intrigued, Webb peeped over the kid's shoulder to see him copying Microsoft's new Office for OS X suite, which retails for $500.

Though we're all arguing here, I think we can all agree that this is really, really funny.
posted by ColdChef at 12:38 PM on February 28, 2002

Personally I have never stolen much (yeah, a steak knife, some of those cool buttons every teen wore in the 80's) I do think the honesty in here is great. If not for these confessions I would never have guessed that so many regulars here have stolen. Maybe now I won't think those statistics on shoplifitng are so inflated.
posted by allpaws at 12:40 PM on February 28, 2002

Well, I guess you've just never done anything really wrong in your life Owills. Or you have, but you'd just rather point the finger. Either way, congrats.
posted by SweetJesus at 12:42 PM on February 28, 2002

an interesting aside: shoplifting is the only crime that is more likely to be perpetrated by a woman.

of course, i picked up this nifty nugget of knowledge from one of those Wildest Police Videos programs they show late night on Fox, so take that as you will.
posted by brigita at 12:43 PM on February 28, 2002

Geez. I had friends who liked to go out on Saturday morning, get a matinee ticket, then stay for a 2nd show. Two movies for the price of one! $2.50 instead of $7.50! A whole $5 for lunch! (By which time you're starving.) I could see the point of saving the money, and I didn't think it radically impacted the theaters profit-wise, but boy. By the time that was over I was desperate for sunshine.

I think it's hilarious that someone would try to skip out on a ticket, but then pay the highway robbery concession prices. That's completely irrational. Don't you get that the movie is just there to make you a captive audience for the overpriced soda? Pay for the ticket, subsidize the entertainment you like, and sneak in some Orville Redenbacher's and a Coke.

Then you have people who take from hotel honor bars, and frantically restock from the local Walgreen's before checking out ...
posted by dhartung at 12:51 PM on February 28, 2002

property is theft.

the land we Americans live on is stolen.

coldchef is so entertaining that he shouldn't have to live by the laws of the rest of us.
posted by goneill at 12:58 PM on February 28, 2002

A quick question for all of you confessing your past indiscretions:

Are you doing so to teach us all how to do it right, brag about your criminal past, or is this your albatros, and you feel the need to confess to anyone who'll listen?
posted by KnitWit at 12:59 PM on February 28, 2002

People who claim to never steal remind me of people who say they never lie. If we really are honest with ourselves we would see that everyone steals at some point in their lives.

It doesn't matter if it is MP3s, undertipping, under reporting on your taxes, or pinching a few veggies from your mom's refrigerator. Things like MP3s and undertipping appear to be petty until viewed in the context of the total retail cost after a year.

The only issue is the degree of cumulative harm and self delusion involved. All that being said, I prefer a relatively honest MP3 downloader who still purchases CDs to an Enron executive who attends church on a regular basis.
posted by Sqwerty at 1:09 PM on February 28, 2002

(On a different note, that Smiths song quoted at the top link is quite good, although I prefer the song "Ask" over it anyday.)
posted by GirlFriday at 1:15 PM on February 28, 2002

Sinse this original thread was about stealing from restaurants (w/o reading yhe NYTimes), I have all too much experience in assholes running off. The worst is i had 9 tables, and one of them w/ a $140 tab decided to get up and leave...without paying. Thankfully, our employer doesn't require us to pay tabs where people run away like that. Beware, though...some friends who serve in the restaurant business are REQUIRED to pay the money out of THEIR pocket if these assholes get up and leave. Yes, i'm bitter when people pull this crap off.
posted by jmd82 at 1:18 PM on February 28, 2002

pinching a few veggies from your mom's refrigerator

oh man. I do this all the time.
posted by panopticon at 1:21 PM on February 28, 2002

I worked in retail for a while in college. All these 'victimless crimes' and revenge justifcations for theft? Thanks a lot, motherfuckers.

When a store loses too much in one week, the staff gets fired. Where I lived, people who are fired aren't eligable for UI. I watched several managers get fired after shoplifters took bigticket items, and I damned near lost my job myself after some jackass got out of the store with a leather jacket.

Aren't you proud of yourselves, that your little 'rage against the man' costs people their jobs? You don't hurt companies by stealing from them - you hurt the little people eking out a living.
posted by kristin at 1:29 PM on February 28, 2002

I stole lots of porno mags from the local bookstore when I was in my mid-teens. My cover was simple...

The local library down the street (also a great place to steal from, in those pre magnetic detector days) used to put 33 record albums into this extremely ugly bright yellow plastic bag with a drawstring emblazoned with "I've been to the library!". Most patrons immediately ditched the bag after leaving the library so as not to be pummeled by roving gangs of tuffs'. I, on the other hand, realized that I could use the dork bags for a more sinister use.

With my freshly checked out 15 year old Poco album in bag, I would browse the hobby magazine section of the local bookstore. When the counter girl was facing the other way I would cram lots of porn into the bag. I would then walk up to the counter and purchase some kind of dorky hobby mag and leave with the booty.

I'm older now and realize my mistakes (getting busted by my Chief of Police dad didn't help), but I can't help but feel my cockles warm when I remember how devious I was.

*Sniff, sniff*

Talk amongst yourselves...
posted by sharksandwich at 1:33 PM on February 28, 2002

Imagining everybody here at a MeFi party and two distinct groups forming; one of them strangely conscious of their wallets and drinks; the rest of us trying in vain to engage them in conversation, not understanding why they keep being politely kept at arm's length.

Me: Hi owillis! I'm Miguel!

Owillis(patting wallet for comfort): Um...excuse me for just one second...
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:34 PM on February 28, 2002

It's better to steal porn than to give pornographers money. As a nationaly known anti-porn activist I give you absolution, sharksandwich, as long as you disposed of the materials properly afterwards.

I have a friend who used to take books out of the library, remove the metal check-out things, return them, and then go back and take them. For some reason she only did this with books by Charles Bukowski.
posted by goneill at 1:36 PM on February 28, 2002

Oh, and I forgot to mention: the same friends were so cheap, that during college, they would go to this all-night roadhouse for coffee and conversation. At the end my friend leaves no tip, I end up leaving an extra-large tip for myself to fractionally make up for it. Mention it to him.

"I don't pay the waitress tax,' he avers. "If they're meant to earn $5/hr the management should just pay it to them straight."

"But if they did that, then the food prices would be much higher."

"Doesn't matter. Besides, the service is lousy -- why should I pay for that?"

The college-students-not-paying-tips, lousy-service connection did not seem to have been made in his head ...
posted by dhartung at 1:53 PM on February 28, 2002

Hey kristin, you were ripped off by a dire and unreasonable employment policy, not shoplifters. The expectation that employees will somehow magically guarantee full payment to their employer is as much a form of theft as pimping is.
posted by Sqwerty at 1:54 PM on February 28, 2002

Nope. I was ripped off by people who felt entitled to take things that didn't belong to them, regardless of the consequences to everyone other than themselves.
posted by kristin at 1:59 PM on February 28, 2002

The expectation that employees will somehow magically guarantee full payment to their employer is as much a form of theft as pimping is.

Heh. You just implicitly called her a prostitute. Heh.
posted by ColdChef at 2:00 PM on February 28, 2002

I don't get people who say stealing is stealing and attack those who justify their acts of theft. That's what ethics is all about. It's not the same for a fat millionaire to steal a loaf from a starving orphan than for a poor man to cheat a big corporation out of five cents.The law itself makes a lot of distinctions between the many different types of theft, based on ethical and political criteria. They vary deeply in different societies.

Each individual should make ethical distinctions between say, sneaking into a movie he wouldn't pay to see and say, stealing a quarter from the theater's till; stealing vegetables from your mother or a stranger, etc. It is engaging in ethical behaviour not to steal from mom and pop shops but and prefer "more victimless" targets. So saying "justifications are BS" is missing the point entirely; as so many honest posters have shown here. Yes, honest, George Washington-style.

Everybody knows it's not right to steal - or at least isn't proud of it. But ethics is much more complicated and involves definite choices. That's why it's so interesting and, ultimately, insoluble. In Portugal we say "ladrão que rouba a ladrão tem cem anos de perdão" - a thief who steals from a thief is forgiven a hundred times over. This saying definitely condemns stealing but shows that not all stealing is alike.

I'm sure every culture has it own Robbing Hood-like equivalent.
posted by MiguelCardoso at 2:08 PM on February 28, 2002 [1 favorite]

As has been said and repeated, we're trying to have a society here.

I hate cameras and cops. I feel this way because I believe that most people are sufficiently intelligent to be able to distinguish between right and wrong. I'd prefer to be obeying the law because I consider it a good idea rather than due to threat of force. Although this is a self-selected sample of the MeFi population, I'm beginning to doubt my personal philosophy.

Full disclosure, I believe that people should travel at a reasonable and prudent speed (to paraphrase the old Montana law) which is often much less than but sometimes greater than the posted speed limits. I've never shoplifted but I did try (and fail) to collect a full set of dishes from my college cafeteria. I love reading but I rarely buy books, I don't need paper and I can carry the information in my head.
posted by Octaviuz at 2:09 PM on February 28, 2002

Metafilter: we're trying to have a society here.
posted by rodii at 2:14 PM on February 28, 2002

It's not the same for a fat millionaire to steal a loaf from a starving orphan than for a poor man to cheat a big corporation out of five cents
Sure it is. They're both bastards. One may be a bigger bastard, but both bastards nonetheless. Poverty is not a free pass to commit crime.

It is engaging in ethical behaviour not to steal from mom and pop shops but and prefer "more victimless" targets.
Stealing just isn't ethical (man, who thought this would be such a radical notion - talk about "if it feels good, do it" on a massive scale), so there's no real rationale there.

My wallet is fine, but where the hell is my watch? Cardoso!!
posted by owillis at 2:16 PM on February 28, 2002

Metafilter: we're trying to have a society here.

Kafkaesque, please also add this to the tee-shirt slogan list. Thank you.
posted by ColdChef at 2:18 PM on February 28, 2002

Audio: You know, we're living in a society!
posted by owillis at 2:18 PM on February 28, 2002

Yeah anyone keeping a blacklist or what?

I have never stolen *anything* consciously. And on the one or two occasions where I have taken things occasionally I have been quite honest about it and I'd imagine people who ran the place were quite grateful.

I believe it is my responsibility to be the last hope for mankind's basic goodness. If we all lose faith in that we're finished.
posted by Settle at 2:19 PM on February 28, 2002

Is that Settle of tit fame talking?
posted by goneill at 2:24 PM on February 28, 2002

I'm not calling kristin a prostitute. Though I do believe that many employers do look at employees as if they wage whores and treat them accordingly.

Remember that there are plenty of employers who do not punish employees for the actions of others.
posted by Sqwerty at 2:31 PM on February 28, 2002

I believe it is my responsibility to be the last hope for mankind's basic goodness.

Well, "tits'' are basically good.
posted by ColdChef at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2002

Best. Thread. Ever.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 2:44 PM on February 28, 2002

Sorry to derail the current moral debate/pimps n hoes flavor this thread is developing with another smarmy confession, but...

A couple of years ago, my Dreamcast stopped working. After deciding it was to much trouble to box the damn thing up and ship it to Sega for them to check it over, I went to Wal-Mart and (legitamately) bought a new one. I kept the receipt, took it home, repacked my broken DC in the new DC's box, went back to Wal-Mart to return it, and stupidly forgot the fact that they'd check the serial digit on the back of the unit with the digit on the receipt. They figured something was amiss, refused to take it back, and I got the hell out of there quick. Now I have two Dreamcasts.

So, one time, I almost sort of shoplifted but kind of got caught because I'm dumb.

Another, time, however, I stole a pack of Camels from a grocery store. My karmic punishment for that was a pack a day habit that still dogs me twelve years after the fact.

Moral: don't steal unless you're not a doofus. And never, ever steal cigarettes.

*hack*
posted by andnbsp at 2:56 PM on February 28, 2002

There are moral absolutes. And theft of property is absolutely wrong.

Moral relativism will ultimately prove the downfall of this society. When any action can be justified, there are no limits to the harm that is caused.

Those of you wishing to stretch your brains a little will want to read "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do," by Peter McWilliam, http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/

Peter's dead now, killed by a merciless federal government, a victim of the "War Against Compassionate Drugs."
posted by five fresh fish at 3:06 PM on February 28, 2002

'I kept the receipt, took it home, repacked my broken DC in the new DC's box, went back to Wal-Mart to return it, and stupidly forgot the fact that they'd check the serial digit on the back of the unit with the digit on the receipt. ' My friend did this with his PS one. It worked. He used his broken one before as a decoy (he got broke into alot) and we called it the faux station. was it wrong, yes, do i feel sick (my idea) no, not one bit. (gets a slap from St. Dismas) FFF, wasgonna let you pass, but....some day you may be gettin mugged, some 'thief' may save your butt, and then what, your gonna condemn him...dont like hypothe-etics? i got a book for you, 'I, willie sutton' THIS IS NOT A MORAL QUESTION. it is an ethical one. please look these up.
posted by clavdivs at 3:16 PM on February 28, 2002

'And theft of property is absolutely wrong.' not one person here has said stealing was 'alright' of course it is not alright, as is breathing dirty air or paying the "Friend of the Court" (BAH) etc.
posted by clavdivs at 3:19 PM on February 28, 2002

Pathetic.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:16 PM on February 28, 2002

(I hate 3 posting but...) i meant the muggin,FFF, as a real scenerio (happened to me) this guy whom saved me was a player, real street-wise. I was a "worker" in the neighbourhood, not a 'tourist' nor a "HoMEboiy". (resident) I'm gonna turn this guy? No, not if i like using spoon with my cornflakes. it was not meant in any context but the real. Miguel raises a question which BREACHES moral behavior (modern, no tribe/wife, shiny stone idol swap and grab in the trees bally-hoo) He reaches the ethical question. take Sher. Holmes (boy:) that ya-yeah injecting limy had a ...memisis, nemisi...whatever. moriarlity...no moriarity...well, this cat could PP and MS at 105% with that potion of master thievery...adam wirth aka adam worth. Doyle admits using Worth as a frame of reference to the ethical conduct of the professional criminal vs professional investigator....Pinkerton and Worth...the story is there. pinkerton, unlike the old man, thought the skill involved in professional jobs was of course wronglyplaced, but he had a one=sided grin for stories like the fellow (probably bow back bob ere some such name) who tried to saw his way INTO a moving boxcar for purposes of dynemitin the CHUBB (fine folks there) ya gotta laugh, weither the stupidity or timerity (sic sp). I cant say we are all thieves for having stolen. how callow. I know a guy who did 12 yrs on REDUCED- first time. |HUGE crew. today the most well respected person, stoic even. has dinner with judges and all. Wille sutton said of the 1930s penal system that there were few paths for a reformer, one who seeks pentience. Once a thief always... yadadadada."what are the best strategies for liberating certain objects?" now what are you hoping for? hmm, some new tricks? rekeying Fords? hmmm. ok Lisbon...David Niven. Cary Grant.James Caan. Robert Denero. Val Kilmer...whom shall it be.?
posted by clavdivs at 4:25 PM on February 28, 2002

now your stirring ere. back your words or go fishing.
posted by clavdivs at 4:27 PM on February 28, 2002

Pathetic.

You think *this* is pathetic? Point your moral outrage to The Great Amazon.com Camera Gold Rush to see some REAL depravity.

MetaFilter: Turning soceity to the shits with egocentric, fuck-everyone attitudes since 1999.

;-)
posted by andnbsp at 4:37 PM on February 28, 2002

Clav: you shouldn't post when you're tripping. And your weak attempts at justification remain pathetic.

Theft is wrong. One's actions later in life do not ameliorate the wrongness of the act.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:58 PM on February 28, 2002

Wow... gotta agree with the surprised ones here...

I'm amazed at how fucking entitled most of the posters seem to think they are. If anything goes wrong in their lives, or they feel they aren't exactly compensated... they make up for it by stealing? If everyone was compensated according to what they personally felt they deserved, we'd all be incredibly rich.

But, the point is, society only works if MOST people don't play the game like that. If we all were like this, no one would be paying for anything, and there would be NOTHING TO STEAL. I've noticed many people try to justify these actions by saying that shoplifting is small time, that it doesn't hurt profits because it's a small % of the take, etc.... that is only true because most of us don't shoplift. Exactly who would fund these products you are stealing if we all stole???

This seems ridiculously obvious, but people are either missing the point or they feel they deserve an exception, because they're so fucking entitled.

In addition, the comment about how easy it is to abuse the honor system points out something else - the more accepted shoplifting/stealing is, the less you'll see honor systems. Surveillance/security will keep increasing. If I owned a retail business, I'd be spending tonight wiring my place up with motion detectors, cameras, face-recognition.... we wouldn't need that sort of intrusive crap if people were honest. The same thing goes for colleges --- my alma mater (Caltech) has an honor system that is respected by most students, so we got to take ALL of our exams on our own, with no supervision. At most schools, enough students feel they deserve an exception that this sort of thing can't work, and students complain about proctors and having to take a test at 8 AM. I could take that same test at midnight or 4 PM or whenever I wanted... because we had a largely functioning society.

Being out in the real world is very depressing.
posted by wildcrdj at 5:47 PM on February 28, 2002

I don't get people who say stealing is stealing and attack those who justify their acts of theft. That's what ethics is all about.

Miguel -- That's what an inconsistent and arbitrary system of ethics is about. It's difficult for me to imagine a workable system of ethics that depends on everyone stealing when they want to.
posted by Hildago at 5:52 PM on February 28, 2002

Well, that's not really fair. I can see stealing being part of a workable ethical system if everybody, all the time, examined the consequences of what they were doing and only stole if they knew that was the right thing to do, and weren't just rationalizing the temptation to get what they want without paying. But of course we know that could never happen, because, to quote Bob Dylan, "people don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent."

Ahh, it feels good to get that quote out.. it's been waiting for its time to shine all day.
posted by Hildago at 6:01 PM on February 28, 2002

FFF, sir, no one protesting that stealing is NOT wrong. rain is wet. etc. it is the ethics sir, the ethics. I happen to take Owillis' stance, it is wrong and there are no conditions upon which stealing is justified, even duress, but that is debatable. 'Janking' the movie theater is wrong, morally. Ethics wise, 'Janking' the theatre is wrong because it is CHEAP. you seem bent upon....

FFF: (standing on rubicon)

Guard: "move along sir"

upon that note...gracias senor Cardoso...and the Dylan says it best.
posted by clavdivs at 6:07 PM on February 28, 2002

I'll admit to shoplifting a bit in my misspent youth. Small stuff, cigarrettes, beer, candy bars, etc. Me and my freinds thought it was really cool, getting free stuff and "sticking to the man" at the same time.
As I got older, I quit boosting stuff, aminly because I could now buy them and two it seemed like dumb kids stuff. I didn't feel guilty till about 4 years ago. I woke up one morning to find my car stolen and when it was recovered there was about $3k worth of damage done to it.
The whole day I walked around ranting "I work my tail off to pay for that car and some prick happens along and decides he wants it...that really frosts my ass..."
And then I made a rather obvious connection. Shoplifters arent sticking it to "the man" cause the man will stick it right back to you in higher prices, in the end all theives are doing is screwing everyone else including themselves.
posted by jonmc at 6:08 PM on February 28, 2002

"do not ameliorate" nor exonerate. The lesson of Sutton was the youth emulating Sutton in the 50's. that sir is pathetic, which willie admitted. redemption is what i'm talkin. you seem to want to take away anyones right to even decide what is bad or good given your rigid moral code. that in and of it-self is theft. what is left is bereft of further debate. my rapier is due back at the guild and Kaf gets pissed when tools are late.
posted by clavdivs at 6:15 PM on February 28, 2002

I think stealing is the wrong word. I think I would prefer the term arbitrage. Money is only one of many co-existing units of value and exchange. Shoplifting, for example, is really a currency exchange, weighing up the social cost of the act versus the dollar value of the item. The astute speculator can make a nice profit with the right transaction.

People who say "Of course I could steal something, but that is too simple and it is wrong!" are not making an important point, they are persistently over-valuing social currency vs monetary currency. These people will find it difficult to profit when arbitrage opportunities present themselves (unlike the chiefs at Enron).

So, would you kill someone for $1,000,000?
posted by hifimofo at 6:15 PM on February 28, 2002 [1 favorite]

Hildago - I meant that saying theft is theft forgets that there are very different kinds of theft. Getting on MetaFilter during work is stealing time(meaning money)from your employer. But suppose there's nothing to do - or that working at that particular moment would be against the company's interests. Then you could argue you were simply stealing electricity; i.e. less money; but still stealing.

Ethics is about making those distinctions. Take ColdChef's example. (I know I have) Sitting in a movie theatre watching a film you suspected was rubbish and indeed is; that is being projected for the whole room and if there are empty seats(otherwise you'd be cheating the theatre out of a paying customer)is still theft. Even if you walk out after ten minutes in a theatre that refunds patrons who pay tickets and refunds(and so technically you're just avoiding the hassle of buying the ticket and being refunded for it)it is still theft.

But it's ethically different - and less reprehensible - from stealing ten dollars in cash from the theatre owner's pocket. Of course if the person who sneaked in, thinking the film was a dud(i.e. ColdChef!), found it to be OK, then he should pay for the ticket af