Georgia considers banning 'evolution'
January 30, 2004 12:20 PM   Subscribe

I'm okay with that. I was really getting tired of fish sprouting legs and people's craniums enlarging all over the place. It puts you off your lunch.

Plus, I think I've evolved enough.
posted by jonmc at 12:37 PM on January 30, 2004

Doesn't hearing the state superintendent refer to evolution as a buzzword gives you a warm tingly inside knowing that Georgias children are in safe hands.
posted by zeoslap at 12:40 PM on January 30, 2004

*bowing head in shame*
posted by FormlessOne at 12:42 PM on January 30, 2004

"Meet the new south, same as the old south?"

Well, DUH. If it was different that could mean it evolved.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:44 PM on January 30, 2004

We should have let them secede.
posted by jpoulos at 12:46 PM on January 30, 2004

"Intelligence" is going to be a buzzword in Georgia if they keep this tomfoolery up.
posted by will at 12:46 PM on January 30, 2004

Secede is such a buzzword.
posted by archimago at 12:48 PM on January 30, 2004

Basically the superintendant of schools is proposing tricking the trouble making parents by removing the word "evolution" from the cirriculum while continuing to teach it in classrooms with no restrictions.

Am I the only one that thinks that's kind of awesome? Are conservatives really that stupid?
posted by maggie at 12:52 PM on January 30, 2004

Whenever I hear people talk about how there are disagreements about evolution, I direct them to a great article by Laurence Moran entitled Evolution is a Fact and a Theory. But, what makes the blood boil is when the term evolution is replaced with, in this case, "biological changes over time." First I get mad and then I have to laugh. These people are so scientifically-illiterate and anti-intellectual because evolution means change over time! Or, if you will, decent through modification.
posted by plemeljr at 12:53 PM on January 30, 2004

Well, it's a good thing. Because this evolution thing was happening
way too fast anyways -- that'll give us time to pause and think about our future.

In the mean time, we'll consider word `Supertaliban' to replace the word `Superintendent.' as far as Georgia is concerned.
posted by NewBornHippy at 12:58 PM on January 30, 2004

Well, if George Bush can substitute the phrase "protect the sanctity of marriage" for the phrase "GET THOSE GODDAMN DISGUSTING FAGS OUT OF OUR AMERICA," why not.
posted by digaman at 12:58 PM on January 30, 2004

There are more details in this article.

"The students from other states always perform better in my classes, and that's a real indictment of the state educational system," the professor said. "North Carolina, another very conservative state, adopted all of the benchmarks. If they can do it in North Carolina, why can't Georgia do it?"

Survival of the fittest.
posted by homunculus at 12:59 PM on January 30, 2004

evolution means change over time

Like I said. Awesome. All these people thinking, well at least my kids not learning about evolution , just changes in populations over time.

I majored in evolution. I've heard every dumb "debate" but this is the best :)
posted by maggie at 1:05 PM on January 30, 2004

At least you people don't live here. Hopefully I won't any longer by year's end.
posted by mischief at 1:05 PM on January 30, 2004

I think it would be best if they replaced the word "evolution" with "biological-change-related activities."
posted by soyjoy at 1:07 PM on January 30, 2004

Some perspective from galbraith:

"In 1848, in Georgia, it was illegal to teach a black person to read. Two years ago it was illegal to teach women in Afghanistan. Today Georgia is considering banning the word evolution from its school text books, making it illegal to fully educate anyone."
posted by mathowie at 1:12 PM on January 30, 2004

>Detour
The theory involved here is actually that of 'natural selection,' and not 'evolution.' The full title of Darwin's book is "The origin of the species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life." Evolution is not a theory, or a process, but rather an outcome of the processes of natural selection.
End detour.
posted by carter at 1:14 PM on January 30, 2004

"Ever noticed that people who believe in creationism look really unevolved?" – Bill Hicks
posted by phoebus at 1:14 PM on January 30, 2004

"Cox repeatedly referred to evolution as a "buzzword" Thursday and said the ban was proposed, in part, to alleviate pressure on teachers in socially conservative areas where parents object to its teaching."

OK, this one's easy.

Move skallas into her house.
posted by trondant at 1:17 PM on January 30, 2004

Here's the thinking: "Why teach something foreign to this land?"
posted by magullo at 1:17 PM on January 30, 2004

We should have let them secede.

Well, if George Bush can substitute the phrase "protect the sanctity of marriage" for the phrase "GET THOSE GODDAMN DISGUSTING FAGS OUT OF OUR AMERICA," why not.

I will now make a post that is as relevant as the two posts I have cited.

HITLER
posted by oaf at 1:18 PM on January 30, 2004

Now, if they'll only stop filling our children's heads with that ridiculous secular theory of gravity, and start giving Intelligent Grappling due attention...
posted by majcher at 1:20 PM on January 30, 2004

"Keep the proles distracted while we loot the Federal Treasury. . ."
posted by the fire you left me at 1:20 PM on January 30, 2004

Why hasn't evolution banned Georgia yet?
posted by callmejay at 1:20 PM on January 30, 2004

Without evolution, how can the white man be superior to the black man?
posted by the fire you left me at 1:21 PM on January 30, 2004

" 'bout time for a book burnin'! "
posted by the fire you left me at 1:23 PM on January 30, 2004

Thousands of dollars spent on new, censored textbooks. Meanwhile, thousands of children in Georgia can't read at their grade level.

Fuckwads. All of em.

FWIW, in my public school I learned both biology (9th grade) and theology (8th grade). One was fact based on science and one was history belief. They coexisted because they were separate subjects.
posted by PrinceValium at 1:24 PM on January 30, 2004

Their state superintendent of schools actually referred to evolution as "that monkeys-to-man thing" and said that "Galileo was not considered reputable when he proposed his theory."

It's terrible what happens when cousins marry, isn't it?
posted by chuq at 1:25 PM on January 30, 2004

^ history "of" belief
posted by PrinceValium at 1:25 PM on January 30, 2004

We should have let them secede.

Well, if George Bush can substitute the phrase "protect the sanctity of marriage" for the phrase "GET THOSE GODDAMN DISGUSTING FAGS OUT OF OUR AMERICA," why not.

[insert irrelevant agenda here]
posted by dhoyt at 1:29 PM on January 30, 2004

Let's hope some brave soul in the Georgia educational system decides to teach evolution anyway. Another Scopes Monkey trial would make for terrific legal drama, and compound the embarrassment of the fools promoting this nonsense.
posted by Scoo at 1:29 PM on January 30, 2004

Without evolution, how can the white man be superior to the black man?

You must not realize that the South is far more integrated than the North ever has been.
posted by oaf at 1:30 PM on January 30, 2004

By the way, Georgia is dead last in national average SAT scores.
posted by the fire you left me at 1:31 PM on January 30, 2004

It's amazing that the people who run a department of education don't understand that the best way to learn things is to put more ideas out there, not less. You want to teach evolution and creationism -- fine (even though there's no scientific basis for creationism). But to actually ban the teaching of something? Have these people read John Stuart Mill? Don't they want their students to become independent thinkers?

Even though this is not a new controversy, I'm still stunned.
posted by Tin Man at 1:32 PM on January 30, 2004

I think, in order to keep the cletus-the-slack-jawed-yokel types happy, we should just change the name of evolution to marmalade. Marmalade can continue to mean the effect that mutations, random or otherwise, have on a sexually reproducing population. But we'll call it marmalade. I mean, who doesn't love marmalade?
posted by lumpenprole at 1:33 PM on January 30, 2004

"In 1848, in Georgia, it was illegal to teach a black person to read. Two years ago it was illegal to teach women in Afghanistan. Today Georgia is considering banning the word evolution from its school text books, making it illegal to fully educate anyone."



Accept it won't be illegal to teach evolution, it will just be officially called "biological changes over time". Teachers and textbooks will still be free to call it evolution.



The sadist thing that I've seen out of this is some kid posting on kuro5hin who had a creationist for a High school biology teacher. He wasn't religious, but he had come to believe that the theory of evolution was 'full of holes' or something.
posted by delmoi at 1:35 PM on January 30, 2004

You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved? You ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. "I believe God created me in one day" Yeah, looks liked He rushed it.

mandatory Bill Hicks quote
posted by matteo at 1:35 PM on January 30, 2004

oaf:

That's because even enlightened liberals need an outlet for fear and loathing, and the South is usually their favorite target.

I'll admit that with asinine actions like this, the South does make it easy, but this thread will probably devolve into a redneck-bash.

plemeljr is correct in that there's anti-intellectualism in the South (and elsewhere), but rarely does any one proffer ideas as to why it exists beyond "stupidity," "fear" or "evil."

Surely, poor education and fundamentalist religion play apart, but might the (self-proclaimed) intellectuals themselves shoulder some blame for societies ignorance?

I'm not trying to smart-guy bash, just posing a question.
posted by jonmc at 1:36 PM on January 30, 2004

That's because even enlightened liberals need an outlet for fear and loathing, and the South is usually their favorite target.

Not very enlightened, then, are they? Are these the types that live in the northeast and haven't ever been farther south or west than Philadelphia, but have visited Europe more than their own country?

plemeljr is correct in that there's anti-intellectualism in the South (and elsewhere), but rarely does any one proffer ideas as to why it exists beyond "stupidity," "fear" or "evil."

There's just as much of it, if not more, in (at least parts of) some states in the Midwest and the Rockies.

I think the bottom line is that it's easy to bash the South, even if it's for reasons not based in fact.
posted by oaf at 1:40 PM on January 30, 2004

Anecdote time!!!

Last week, my son (in fifth grade) missed the second half of one of Georgia's standardized tests. However, based on those test results, they are placing him in an advanced program.

Side note: His mother (a high school dropout) homeschooled him from kindergarten through fourth grade. We may soon be doing so again.
posted by mischief at 1:41 PM on January 30, 2004

dam it, I'm reading more bill hicks then i thought possible

and this is a bad thing?
posted by clavdivs at 1:41 PM on January 30, 2004

jonmc: It's a reasonable question you pose, but what I find more interesting is that the question is one a liberal thinker would typically ask.

"How am I/are we at fault here?"

It would be nice if the other side appeared to have any such misgivings.
posted by Ryvar at 1:45 PM on January 30, 2004

Other changes to Georgia curriculum
posted by goethean at 1:45 PM on January 30, 2004

plemeljr is correct in that there's anti-intellectualism in the South (and elsewhere), but rarely does any one proffer ideas as to why it exists beyond "stupidity," "fear" or "evil."
Surely, poor education and fundamentalist religion play apart, but might the (self-proclaimed) intellectuals themselves shoulder some blame for societies ignorance?

I think it has more to do with a Southern culture that is inexplicably tied to religion. Not accepting reality has more to do with maintaining your culture than choosing a set of beliefs.

It's as if one's identity would be forfeited if a rational set of laws are accepted in place of the hazy 7 day mythos.

It also reminds me of East Berliners pining for the days of the Wall, not for the set of laws, but for a culture lost.
posted by the fire you left me at 1:47 PM on January 30, 2004

Georgia considers banning 'evolution'

just making it official, then?
posted by quonsar at 1:53 PM on January 30, 2004

oaf:

I like the south. Most of my favorite music, food and literature comes from Dixie. And generally speaking, the people are cool.

I'm agreeing with you. I'm a bit surpried that people who would cringe at the slightest implication of a racial stereotype fell no compunction whatsoever about dragging out "cletus-the-slack-jawed-yokel." People who believe that enviorment is everything will dismiss poor white southerners as simply dumb inbred hicks.

I'm the last person on earth to argue for more political correctness, but I just think that there's a little hypocrisy with the poeple who trot out "bubba" whenever they need a stereotype for stupid.

Ryvar: I understand what you mean. BUt the other side, I define as the fundies pushing there agenda (no offense to any Christians I know) for political gain, not the great mass of southerners who'll be on the recieving end of this decision.

the fire...: New England (where I hail from, Im a damyankee) is culturally tied to religion too, just not as obviously. Remember the CT Blue laws. Plus sometimes the religious culture of the south can lead to good things, many southern ministers (black and white) were involved in the labor & civil rights movement.
posted by jonmc at 1:58 PM on January 30, 2004

I would like to state that when I said, "these people" I not only was refering to people in the South who question evolution [or natural selection/decent with modification/etc.] I meant ALL people - not only Southerners, but those in the North, etc. I had a long question about the correlation of those who believe in "creationism" to geographic location, political affinity, education, etc. but my browser ate it.

But it is ironic that a large tenant of conservative thought is dominated by so-called Social Darwinism, when those same people attack the very theory that is used in order to subvert the other [re: the weak].
posted by plemeljr at 2:00 PM on January 30, 2004

Maybe they should teach Unintelligent Design instead.
posted by electro at 2:00 PM on January 30, 2004

If the South ever rebells again, I say let'm go!
posted by Bag Man at 2:13 PM on January 30, 2004

Ok, so it's shameful, but, everybody who's overreacting, pause, go back, read maggie's two posts. No money will be spent rewriting books, no teacher will be prohibited from using the word--it just isn't listed as "evolution" in the curriculum. A move intended "to alleviate pressure on teachers in socially conservative areas where parents object to its teaching."

Also, a minor addition to carter's post: Evolution is...an outcome of the processes of natural selection. It is an outcome of several processes including but not limited to natural selection. There is also genetic drift (sampling error from one generation to another), gene flow among populations, and a couple other things that are generally ignored in school because the math gets hard. /nitpick
posted by shinnin at 2:20 PM on January 30, 2004

Just have to chime in on the southern bashing thing:
It is pretty disappointing to hear people with beliefs similar to mine (liberal) toss blanket insults my way because i live south of the mason-dixon line.

I don't agree in the slightest with what they are doing. Georgia's public schools are horrible. A lot of Georgia is pretty rural and unsurprisingly more non-secular, progressive, etc.

But don't forget Atlanta which is very modern* and has a black woman as a mayor to boot! Pretty progressive for a bunch of racist neanderthals I think.

Sorry about the rant, it's just been in the back of my mind for a while.

*I was actually surprised at how old everything in New York looked when I visited for my first time recently.
posted by untuckedshirts at 2:21 PM on January 30, 2004

as a georgian, all I have to say to you guys bashing the south is...you're right. rescue me!
posted by mcsweetie at 2:23 PM on January 30, 2004

This is the same state that decided not to hire a teacher because he was too smart:

"... It was felt that your demeanor and therefore presence in the classroom would serve as an unrealistic expectation as to what high school students could strive to achieve or become. However, it is highly recommended that you seek employment at the collegiate level; there your intellectual comportment would be greatly appreciated. Good luck."
posted by gyc at 2:25 PM on January 30, 2004

and the same political mindset that didn't vote for Gore because he was too smart.
posted by badstone at 2:34 PM on January 30, 2004

Now, I have to agree that my first reaction was "Ms. Cox, the universe is here to see you...apparently, you need to turn in your thumbs.".

But then I realized that this may very well be one of the sneakiest end runs around the Fundies that I've seen. So, I'm not really sure what to think without doing some more research.

And if everyone up north thinks the south is so bad...why on earth do they keep moving down here?
posted by dejah420 at 2:39 PM on January 30, 2004

"Ok, so it's shameful, but, everybody who's overreacting, pause, go back, read maggie's two posts. No money will be spent rewriting books, no teacher will be prohibited from using the word--it just isn't listed as 'evolution' in the curriculum."

You know, the major problem I would have with changing the terminolgy from "evolution" to "biological change over time" that while evolution is biological change over time, not all ideas concerning of biological change over time are evolution. For example, "intelligent design" is (strictly speaking) biological change over time, although it is not evolution as most people understand the term.

As I've said elsewhere, the worry is that a couple years down the road some "intelligent design" supporter in the Georgia lege is going to try to jam that idea into science classes on the theory that the standards talk about "biological change over time" and not "evolution."
posted by jscalzi at 2:42 PM on January 30, 2004

not to derail, but i'm a little tired of this "there's just as much racism in the north as there is in the south" bullshit.

as a young black male who was born and raised in the south,has spent time in the northeast, and is now back in the south, let me present some interestin' things for your consideration:
1) times i was walking down the street and had someone drive by and yell "nigger" at me in the north: 0. in the south: about 3 times over 17 years (1st occurrence when i was 9 years old).

2) times i've been threatened with physical abuse by a cop -- when i had committed no crime other than being black in a white neighborhood -- in the north: 0. in the south: 1 (and that's 1 time too many)

3) times i've been treated like a dog by a cop when i was minding my own business (being told "come here" instead of "excuse me, sir") in the north: 0. in the south: 2 or 3 times.

4) times i've had concerned white citizens call the police on me either b/c i "looked like a suspect" or b/c they thought i was doing something suscpicious in the north: 0. in the south: 2 times (1st occurrence when i was 8)

5) times i've had a private citizen sic a dog on me b/c i was black in the north: 0. in the south: 1 (and, again, that's 1 time too many)

6) times i've seen "niggers are our slaves" or "niggers must die" or some such crap in graffitti in the north: a few times...more than i'd like. in the south: too numerous to count.

i could go on.

nobody ever said the north was some perfect paradise of racial harmony and understanding, but for god's sake, it's a million times better than the south. i mean, you are aware that there are places in the south full of staunch republicans, the kind of americans george w.bush is always praising in his stump speeches, where people like condi rice, colin powell, and clarence thomas had better not find themselves after dark without a bodyguard? vidor (texas), birmingham (alabama), any place in mississippi.....

(btw, i'm mostly addressing oaf's comment, " You must not realize that the South is far more integrated than the North ever has been .")
posted by lord_wolf at 2:48 PM on January 30, 2004

Surely, poor education and fundamentalist religion play apart

Nope, they pretty much play together.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 2:51 PM on January 30, 2004

Not very enlightened, then, are they? Are these the types that live in the northeast and haven't ever been farther south or west than Philadelphia, but have visited Europe more than their own country?

I grew up in the Ozarks, which is more fundamentalist and backwards than any part of the South. I've eaten squirrels and shat in outhouses. Do I get to say that racism and religion-induced willful ignorrance are a cultural cornerstone for a large block of poor white people in America? Because that fact shaped my reality for 17 years, hence my surprise that so many here would prefer we pretend it away.

Does anyone have trouble with the idea that fewer than 100% of Southerners fit the "Redneck" stereotype? OK. I didn't think so. What end, then, is served by pretending that crazy shit like banning the word "evolution" does not fit into a general cultural context?

Many of the tangential points of jonmc, untuckedshirts, et al are perfectly valid. Indeed, Atlanta is 100 times more integrated than Chicago, which is arguably more segregated now than the south was during the 50's. That being said, it is only by some pretty lax and starry-eyed reconstructionist standard that Atlanta--a city with a large and politically powerful black population--electing a Black mayor is seen as a sure sign of progressivity (not that it necessarilly isn't. What the hell do I know?).

But let's not forget that there is a reason why such shit as the South Carolina "John McCain's got a black baby" smear and the "the gays are takin' away our rights to marry" thing not only work, but are concocted by tacticians in the first place: religious fundamentalism and extreme social conservatism tend to play important and special roles in the cultural and political dialogue of poor, rural white people. This doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions--I considered myself one--but that all this ought to be all the more clear to them.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 3:26 PM on January 30, 2004

"Are these the types that live in the northeast and haven't ever been farther south or west than Philadelphia, but have visited Europe more than their own country?"

Please.
I spent the first 20 years of my life in the deep south.
It is predominantly racist and anti-intellectual. You can be the nuttiest snake-handling fundamentalist fanatic and still be taken seriously. That's how it is, with pockets of culture here and there, and some nice folks scattered all around.
You can argue about how it is in the north and the west all you want, but I won't be moving back. Visiting is bad enough.
posted by 2sheets at 3:28 PM on January 30, 2004

plemeljr: But it is ironic that a large tenant of conservative thought is dominated by so-called Social Darwinism, when those same people attack the very theory that is used in order to subvert the other [re: the weak].

Right on the spot. I have a word that describes this behavior , that's hyprocrisy. As they accept social darwinism they should also accept darwinism as well otherwise the very foundation of their tought falls apart.

But, you know : their target audience is often people that wasn't tought logic and critical reasoning, so they don't fear being exposed by their own base.
posted by elpapacito at 3:29 PM on January 30, 2004

I hope some students get together and sue Kathy Cox and the rest of the Supervisory Board.

"Evolution" is a buzzword? What?
"Non Hostile Gunshot Wound" is a buzzword the ShrubCo camp invented because it sounds better than "friendly fire".

Evolution is the extremely widely accepted theory of how we came to be. What the fudge are those Georgian idiots smoking?

What's next? "We've decided that mathematics is too difficult a word for our kids to pronounce so we're going to call it number learnin' and English is, like, some country we left and then kicked the crap out of so we're changing English to 'Merican. Oh yes, its also called an edumacation now too!"

Sheesh, I am profoundly glad to have been educated by educators and not edumacators like they got in Georgia.
posted by fenriq at 3:29 PM on January 30, 2004

[Insert inevitable online petition here.]
posted by grabbingsand at 3:43 PM on January 30, 2004

Majcher: <sarcasm blinders>which ridiculous secular theory of gravity? The one that misses that extra 43 seconds of arc per century in the precession of the perihelion of Mercury?</sarcasm blinders>

Is it just 'biological macroevolution' (bear with me on the label) that the people trying to extract 'evolution' from the syllabus are concerned about or is it complex adaptive systems theory in general?

Given that complex adaptive systems theory underpins major research efforts in economics, computer science, psychology, linguistics, chemistry, engineering, and pretty much everything else I can think of (including experimental visual arts and music) we could be about to see some interesting effects on Georgia's education system (even at the tertiary level).

To borrow some convenient labels from Howard Bloom I personally think it might even be helpful to have experimental outliers like this somewhere in the world: in any group (academia) you need your diversity generators to queue your resource shifters to create intergroup tournaments against your conformity enforcers or to bolster the impact of inner-judges. (Of course one person's diversity generator functions as another's conformity enforcer.)

But I'll be honest: I'd probably be annoyed if it was my state.
posted by snarfodox at 3:43 PM on January 30, 2004

This is a PC substitution like "African-American" instead of "Black," or "Differently Abled" as opposed to "Retarded," or "Intelligent Design" as opposed to "Creationism." It sort of violates my adopted (from god knows where) slogan of "Never use a big word where a short, filthy one will do," but whatever - it's Georgia.
posted by Veritron at 3:44 PM on January 30, 2004

plemeljr is correct in that there's anti-intellectualism in the South (and elsewhere), but rarely does any one proffer ideas as to why it exists beyond "stupidity," "fear" or "evil."

There's just as much of it, if not more, in (at least parts of) some states in the Midwest and the Rockies.

I think the bottom line is that it's easy to bash the South, even if it's for reasons not based in fact.

This argument doesn't let the South off the hook, it just provides an argument that people in the midwest and the Rockies are also stupid, fearful or evil.
posted by biffa at 3:57 PM on January 30, 2004

South..., midwest..., Rockies : Let's not forget Pennsylvania which has Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Alabama in between. Go Nittany Lions!
posted by mischief at 4:31 PM on January 30, 2004

And if everyone up north thinks the south is so bad...why on earth do they keep moving down here?

The weather- it gets mighty cold up here at times... though I suspect extended periods of heat might be baking Southerner's brains.
posted by internook at 4:56 PM on January 30, 2004

Kathy Cox was elected as School Superintendent in 2002 because of name confusion. The south is, for the most part, dumb as a stump. I live here in Atlanta. I am comfortably nestled in the more enlightened and upwardly mobile (and mostly gay, thank goodness) Midtown area. But you only have to travel about 10 miles from where I'm at to meet people who think that stretch pants and appliqué sweatshirts are fine dining attire.
I have no problem believing that these same people would be up in arms about their "chilren" learning about evolution but would be okay with them learning about "biological changes over time".
If you think I am exagerating, I invite you for the weekend and I'll take you to Stone Mountain. It will take you about 5 mins. to find a bumpersticker of the Confederate Flag on a POS pickup truck. You can ask the owner about this, of course you will have to explain evolution to him first.
posted by bas67 at 5:17 PM on January 30, 2004

I spent the first 20 years of my life in the deep south.

So have I, and I'm sorry you don't remember it too well.
posted by oaf at 5:36 PM on January 30, 2004

i could go on.

nobody ever said the north was some perfect paradise of racial harmony and understanding, but for god's sake, it's a million times better than the south.

Don't know much about Detroit, do you? There are still places where real estate brokers will not sell you a house if you're black. Don't tell me that the South is more racist. The North doesn't have to have laws requiring segregation because they'd be legislating the status quo. The most segregated school systems in this country are in the North, not the South.
posted by oaf at 5:41 PM on January 30, 2004

For some odd reason, as I was reading the comments, the country/wester old time song line ran through my mind. "I know god din't make honky tonk women..." did evolution?
posted by Postroad at 6:13 PM on January 30, 2004

Don't know much about Detroit, do you? There are still places where real estate brokers will not sell you a house if you're black. Don't tell me that the South is more racist. The North doesn't have to have laws requiring segregation because they'd be legislating the status quo. The most segregated school systems in this country are in the North, not the South.

And lets not forget that the North only started legally desegregating shortly before the South was forced to. I've heard stories of Black performers who were invited to play the swank hotels but not permitted to eat there and one case where the hotel staff fed the band on hotel china, only to break the plates in the trash afterwards.

You see, politeness is pounded into most White Northerners from a very young age. They will never say anything openly, but they will say it confidentially to their family and friends. They will find excuses to ignore the people they don't like in stores. They will subtly lock the car doors when driving by a black man, and give each other advice on how to avoid "that neighborhood". If a house is for sale, they will pray that an ethnic minority won't buy it. If one does move next door, perhaps it's time to find a bigger house, in a "better" (whiter) neighborhood.

But actually telling this to a black/asian or hispanic person would just be rude. So we make elaborate excuses for why our chuches, country clubs and neighborhoods are segregated. We may not say the "n-word" in polite company, but we will certainly indulge in many of the same sterotypes through carefully coded arguments about drug use, urban decay and property values.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 6:53 PM on January 30, 2004

If "modern" equals "uncontrolled sprawl," then Atlanta is a dandy place.
posted by drstrangelove at 7:05 PM on January 30, 2004

Maybe they should teach it, but call it... E V I L U T I O N
posted by wfrgms at 7:14 PM on January 30, 2004

I grew up in Clayton County Georgia and lived nowhere else until I left for college. Most, if not all, of my teachers from Kindergarten until 12th grade were intelligent people who were pretty good at their job. Looking at the dismal statistics it seems that I was pretty lucky to attend some great public schools. I had a 7th grade science teacher, Mr. Davis, whom I loved. Mr. Davis was one of the most passionate teachers I’ve ever had and I learned tons about anatomy and biology from him. However, Mr. Davis was a creationist and he believed in teaching creationism along side evolution. Even to a self-absorbed 13 year old it was pretty clear that he only grudgingly taught evolution. I remember constantly battling with him about carbon dating and archaeopteryx fossils. The man wasn’t an idiot, but I still don’t know why he stuck to theories without real science behind them.

Even now that I’m older I still get miffed about how so few students questioned anything that he said, or how many people took it as the truth because he was their teacher. This is how we end up with legislation that doesn’t do anything but try and please people who don’t know anything about the scientific method. I wonder what will happen to these children when they grow up and college biology classes or try to become scientists or teachers themselves.
posted by Alison at 7:31 PM on January 30, 2004

KirkJobSluder: truer words were never spoken. That was exactly my experience growing up in upstate NY amongst religious fundamentalists.
posted by Ryvar at 8:08 PM on January 30, 2004

We should have let them secede.

I think the bottom line is that it's easy to bash the South, even if it's for reasons not based in fact.

Oaf, you're wasting your breath my friend.

The same people who would rush to defend any non pc comment regarding gender or race are at ease making sweeping generalizations regarding the south, showing the same ignorance displayed by the 'rednecks' they so despise.

Especially here on mefi. I'm guessing it has to do with the lack of southern representation.

nobody ever said the north was some perfect paradise of racial harmony and understanding, but for god's sake, it's a million times better than the south.

A million times, huh? Morgan Freeman was on pbs within the last year discussing his love for the south. His comment on racism was that racism existed in both the north and south but was more insidious in the north. (He was opening a blues club in the same Mississippi you mention.)

I spent my childhood years spending summers in New Hampshire. Lovely little towns with no racism. Not surprising as the towns were as white as snow, not a black person in sight.

where people like condi rice, colin powell, and clarence thomas had better not find themselves after dark without a bodyguard? vidor (texas), birmingham (alabama), any place in mississippi.....

Unlike Birmingham where I live, where there are actual black people in the population. Of course, your comments will give backing to those here who have never been to Birmingham but have heard of some church bombing from the past and just can't imagine living someplace where pick up trucks draped with rebel flags are a common site.

But you're right. Birmingham does have a problem with crime. Hell, I'm white and there are some places I wouldn't dare be alone at night.

I'm hoping our mayor does something about that, considering I voted for him. (A little strange such a racist city would elect a black mayor.) Let's just hope our Police Chief (a black woman...gasp) is up to the challenge.
posted by justgary at 9:58 PM on January 30, 2004

Calpundit's Kevin Drum proves again (as somebody always seems to be doing) Lily Tomlin's adage, "No matter how you get, it is impossible to keep up."
posted by Guy Smiley at 9:59 PM on January 30, 2004

In California, we have settled on Intelligent Groping :)
posted by phewbertie at 11:34 PM on January 30, 2004

well think of it this way, there YA state who's children wont be competing against my future children for jobs in science and high tech.
posted by MrLint at 12:31 AM on January 31, 2004

Dem Georgeuns don't need no book learnin' no how...
posted by clevershark at 3:11 AM on January 31, 2004

All this talk about the south...I've lived living down here the last 18 years in Atlanta/Athens (college at UGA). At my private, Catholic high school, the theory of evolution was openly taught in our biology course and nobody ever had a problem with it. I have no problem with evolution, as did non of my religious friends (untill I met a Mormon)...and fact is, if you believe in a God where He created everything, then He still created us via that first little prokaryotic cell.
posted by jmd82 at 7:56 PM on January 31, 2004

Look man, as the person who brought up the "cletus" slur, let me say a couple things. I grew up in a place in the North that is as ignorant and stupid as it gets. As a child I lived in the center of 3 trailer parks in which lived some of my best freinds and some of the most despiciple samples of humanity you would ever care to meet. I am 100% sure that I could reach into my home town and find individuals who rivaled, if not outshone, their southern counterparts in terms of raw ignorance and closed-mindedness. A big part of a politicians job up there is knowing what will keep the 'cletus' types happy.

But I'm sorry, if you don't want people to point and laugh at your state, don't f**king outlaw teaching science! My comment was more to highlight what an interesting tack I think this person is taking. She's assuming that people who are ignorant enough to think that fossils came about because dinosaurs weren't allowed on Noah's boat will not catch the change. She may be right. I still think Georgia should be roundly mocked for it.

See, everybody who saying that racism exists in the north but is more subtle is right. There's nowhere you're not going to find racism. But at least it's not considered okay. That's the reason it has to be subtle. There are a majority of people who do not approve of racist sentiment being expressed in public. I'm for that.

I don't think you can get rid of racism totally. But by making people feel shame about expressing it, you can at least hope they might think twice before teaching it to their kids. Saying "people are just more open about it" makes me feel like you're giving tacit approval to it.

But what the hell do I know? I only ever lived in the southwest and the few times I visited Tennesse I loved it. So maybe it is all the same. However, I'm sticking to my guns about Georgia. You ban teaching evolution, you might as well ban teaching algebra and electricty. I will mock you.
posted by lumpenprole at 5:14 PM on February 1, 2004

But I'm sorry, if you don't want people to point and laugh at your state, don't f**king outlaw teaching science! I still think Georgia should be roundly mocked for it.

Georgia isn't outlawing anything. ONE person made the proposal. I have no problem with the mocking of that person, but to mock the entire state over this (fyi: I have no connection with Georgia) is a huge stretch.

See, everybody who saying that racism exists in the north but is more subtle is right. There's nowhere you're not going to find racism. But at least it's not considered okay. That's the reason it has to be subtle. There are a majority of people who do not approve of racist sentiment being expressed in public. I'm for that.

I'll have to disagree with you. When Freeman said that the north has a more insidious form of racism, he didn't mean it as a compliment.

Insidious: a disease existing, without marked symptoms, but ready to become active upon some slight occasion; a disease not appearing to be as bad as it really is.

I'd much rather have it out in the open than hiding. The redneck driving the pickup truck with a giant rebel flag in the bed and a 'the south will rise again' bumper sticker is harmless. Even in the South this type of person is shunned and characterized as backwards (for the most part). And this type of open racism is easy to confront/avoid.

Insidious racism is much more harmful, much more dangerous, and will exist a lot longer than blatant racism. In the same way that an insidious disease will kill silently and unexpectedly, its much easier for insidious racism to go unchecked.

I'm not saying the South doesn't have problems. I'm saying that other parts of the country avoid looking at their own back yards by pointing at the south.

Granted, the South often gives people reason to point and mock, but often they fail to realize that the actions are those of one person or a small group. Remember Roy Moore's monument? Crowds of people supported and rallied for him. What was lost on most people here was that many of his supporters were bussed in from other parts of the coutry.

And I'm well aware that several people here on mefi intentionally throw out oneliners everytime the South is brought up, basically trolling. But I wonder how many people who have never been to the South believe their ignorant comments.

Many people have no problems giving their opinons on the South even when they've never stepped south of the mason-dixon line. And lord help us if they actually visited one time as a child.

Having family in both the North and South, and having lived in both, I can say with certainty that the North is much more ignorant about the South than vice versa. I still remember as a child my grandmother, who had never been to the South, asking me if I had witnessed many Klan rallies.

I said no, and asked her when the last time she had seen a black person. Her town was all white.
posted by justgary at 9:28 PM on February 1, 2004

Jay Bookman of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution writes a pretty good essay about this subject.

In an increasingly global economy, Georgians will face more and more direct competition for jobs and profits, a competition in which once again the fit will thrive and those less adaptable will suffer. We already know that we will not be able to compete with places such as China for the low-wage, low-skill work that has long sustained Georgia, and will have to instead rely on superior education and knowledge-based skills to maintain our standard of living. That's why the move to high tech is considered so important.

And yet last week, as Georgia was pretending that the word "evolution" was too controversial to mention, scientists in China were announcing that they had documented how the SARS virus had twice evolved -- excuse me, had "changed biologically over time" -- as it migrated from animals to human beings.

You think about something like that and you realize: If they're right about the survival of the fittest, we're in a mess of trouble.

posted by moonbiter at 11:13 PM on February 1, 2004

Dumbing down our past doesn't serve our future
posted by homunculus at 2:26 PM on February 3, 2004